Nechrom

I don't know why I bother. I try to explain my arguments and people who have no clue just spout random fantasy opinions with no arguments. So you are being allowed to sit alone in a cap point? That's nice.

Maximum damage requires a penetration, which you'll only get with high caliber HE even against light armor. Superstructure armor is far from non-existent for the purpose of protecting from small caliber HE rounds. For example the New Orleans has 16 mm superstructure armor while the North Carolina has 19 mm. Their deck armor is 25 mm and 32-37 mm respectively. I'm also fairly certain that even penetrating shots don't do full damage if they only hit non-critical areas of the ship, like the superstructure.

I really don't see the strange thing going on. He's clearly not wasting his shots on highly armored targets like your chosen examples. HE for the most part don't penetrate so they don't even get close to doing full damage. Depending on the armor close to their impact point they will project damage through the armor and how much gets through depends on the armor thickness vs the round's explosive charge.

When cherry picking results you should be very careful about throwing around statistics related words like "average". More likely is that most of these hits are doing 0 damage because someone is hosing down armored ships with 127 mm HE rounds.

And I am thankful for the online player database, so I can quickly identify people who are making crap up and ignore them. Thanks.

The thing is if you fire HE at BBs you're not going to get the same consistent damage you get when firing them at CA/CLs and DDs. This is working as intended. Focus on other ships first and only engage BBs when no other targets are available. You can still set them on fire well enough and you can easily whittle them down if you have help. As previously said, BBs will get mobility nerfs in the next patch to keep them in line as a whole. While this doesn't do much for your specific situation, it makes sure that BBs don't become too powerful in general.

I'm legitimately interested in knowing where you are getting these metrics.

I have never said anything about carrying, I just want them to be on par with other classes reward-wise and not be 100% reliant on enemy weakness. I'm totally fine with DDs being opportunists but when they can't make baseline results for themselves through skill alone, there's a problem. In a BB or CA you can make a reliable minimum level of income no matter how lopsided a battle is, while in a DD you can't.

Back when I started sailing DDs in the CBT they weren't support any more than CAs are. They were legitimate damage dealers and could hold their own reward wise. They weren't perfect but they were way better than they are now. No one is asking to casually remove any ships, there's a far leap between barely being able to hit with 1 out of 10 torpedoes that reloads over more than 80 seconds and hitting with all of your torpedoes which is what would be required to destroy a BB on average. You get plenty for pushing ships out of caps, it's called damage and defense points. Straw men. Very mature.

As the owner of one I can recommend it if you like your lower tiers. The quite unique gun placement giving you 9 forward facing guns is really nice and further enhances the other aggressive aspects of it, like a nice complement of forward facing secondaries. The question I guess is if you think it's worth 30€.

Winning the battle becomes meaningless or even detrimental to your rewards (in the case of your daily) if you don't get to perform much in the way of rewarding actions in the battle. And once again we come back to the issue that everything you can do to gain rewards in a DD hinges on the enemy making mistakes. You're not going to be able to cap anything if you're up against a good team, but the good BBs and CAs on your own team are sure to be able to get a bunch of damage in regardless. I'm thankful to WG for increasing the rewards for capping so you at least have more options for getting rewarded as a DD, but that still doesn't change that you're completely at the mercy of other players no matter what method you choose. If they were to add spotting damage rewards as well we'd be getting close to having enough routes to getting rewarded so that the sum total between all the possible sources would reach acceptable levels. But I'd much rather them making DDs more able to take initiative and not be 100% reactionary. Pretty much this ^

Once again nothing of what you just wrote is refuting anything I wrote. If forcing a BB to turn is the ultimate goal and a victory for a DD and you can say this is fine with a straight face, then you're a lost cause. For the 3rd time I'm not talking about ranked or some organized play where winning is the only thing that matters.

Since a CA can apparently turn fast enough to avoid 500-800 m/s cannon shells and since some of the fastest torpedoes go 35 m/s, BBs should have no problem avoiding them.

So much logic, it's overwhelming. You haven't played any DDs past tier 5, so just drop that fallacy. That last part about the range of engagement just proves that you haven't actually read my posts, or at least not understood what you read. It goes back to the fact that a DD left alone can do well. If you can get to 7km from a BB undetected you've been left alone. You are there because the enemy let you, not because you out played anyone. 1. Which is irrelevant to anyone who isn't bad and doesn't keep the same speed and heading for several minutes at a time. 2. If you're talking about the difference between torpedo range and spotting distance then see point 1 above. If you're talking about the spotting distance by its self, then that's just false. 3. While they also have more time and room to do so given their speed. The possible locations a high tier BB can move to between the point of torpedo launch and when the torpedoes reach the target distance is much higher for high tiers. 4. This is true but ultimately only relevant when you end up in a situation where torpedoes are heading straight into your side at close to 90°. If you are good then you won't be sailing perpendicular to the enemy direction for any extended amount of time. 5. The biggest reason why lower tier BBs even have to go into fairly close range with DDs is because of their gun range. A high tier BB can reach so far that they can keep a lot of ocean between them and any islands while still being able to have enemies in range to engage. There are of course exceptions to this in a few locations on some maps, but it's still not somewhere you'll see good captains BB very often. You don't have any higher tier DD experience either, just like him. So just drop the experience fallacies now, or you can both leave the discussion for literally the same reason.

Extreme range or close range is the only situations I'd recommend using 203mm AP against similar cruisers. They either need almost vertical trajectories to go through the deck into the citadel or almost horizontal to get as close to 0° hits as possible on the belt armor. Then you have the issue of small and low placed citadels on the US cruisers that almost makes it pointless to try unless you're a BB with heavy shells that can travel through some water.

High tier BBs also get a lot faster which makes it much easier to throw off torpedoes since they require way more lead. You don't avoid torpedoes by starting to turn when your ship detects them, even if some BBs unfortunately can do this as well. You avoid torpedoes by not keeping constant speed and heading, so when you spot them you're not even in their way or you're at least already in the middle of evasive maneuvers. US BBs also get crazy gun traverse speed at high tiers, so they can easily change heading without their gunnery suffering. What is this false information I have posted?

Also because having the word: Initiative and. WG EU in the same sentence would create a reality altering paradox.

Interesting and gives a ray of hope. As long as it's not too little too late. Thanks for re-posting here.

I love that the game actually rewards me for "spreading the love" so to say. Either using ships earlier in the same line or starting a completely new one. Would be even better if that also extended to XP, so I could essentially play whatever ship I wanted and still gain XP towards what I wanted to unlock. But this works too, since credits becomes the barrier at higher tiers and not XP.

Even if you have the worst luck in the world, you'll still only get a detonation death once every 11 battles. Use the signals you get after getting blown up and experience 10 battles of immunity.

I brought up global win rates, yes. And no I don't think that those are the best thing to balance off of, but they are enough to show a general trend without bias either way. Better than just saying "I think they are fine." or "I think they are underpowered.". The fact that there are fewer ships and a maximum of half as many CVs is exactly why it makes such a big difference. Same reason DDs are "battle winners" because they get stronger later in the battle when there are fewer ships about and you should have a fairly good idea of where all the enemy ships are. DDs wrecking DDs are not the norm. Most often they just spot each other and the CAs nuke one. So they are essentially ruining each others battle for very little return. If DDs can get a rare 1 v 1 then it's not a problem, let the best DD win. Once again, they might provide the battle winning support, but in a very high-risk low-reward way. Then we have CVs and those can just shut down 1-2 enemy DDs at will for essentially no risk to themselves. This is not a CV whine because they also suffer from a lot of what the DDs suffer from. CVs don't need a nerf, DDs just needs an air detectability buff. What it boils down to is that a spotted DD is either dead or useless. And there's only so much a DD captain can do about that without putting himself completely out of the fight. I can't speak in regards to long range gun boat DDs because they might as well be a different class altogether. Torpedoes are always irrelevant to good captains. You can always avoid torpedoes unless you make a mistake, which isn't the case for cannon fire. So having a class of ships based around the use of torpedoes as their main weapon is flawed if you keep treating torpedoes as secondary weapons in general. Torpedoes at lower tiers work because of less experienced targets, less/no planes and actual competitive reload rates (DPM) on them. Torpedoes do not scale almost at all past tier V with the exception of possibly tier X for IJN. Btw I'm still talking about IJN for the most part since they are the ones relegated to using torpedoes almost exclusively.

I don't even think you can use the word in the context he used it. It's an idea not a property.

Learn to understand that a single player is not representative of the entire player base, that's why you base statistics on as large of a sample size as possible. I'm better with DDs than I am with other classes. I'm not some homogeneous AI that is equally good at doing everything. Ranked mode is a completely different environment than random. I just have to take your word for it, that DDs are fine in ranked. I'm not talking about ranked though. If you get left alone by enemy DDs and CV planes, then you can have good battles in your DD. But that's just the problem, it's way too easy to crap on DDs and just make them completely irrelevant, and there's nothing the DDs can realistically do about it besides staying back doing nothing.

And if tier 6+ IJN DDs were in line with the other classes my win rate would be even higher. What does my win rate have to do with overall balance? If you have any arguments why they are fine, then please present them. Just saying that they are fine doesn't make it true.

Okay, well I was referring to non-ranked battles. So his sarcastic snark missed the point completely.