Thonar

You haven't realized the sarcasm, do you? I have no problem in RN-Fans defending the RN Topics... but you aren't called for that RN-aboo, do you? The rest was already explained to often by me, why I like having this discussion... AGAIN: Nobody argues for 3rpm... so... what is your post even about? Every point you made in this post was already explained in Detail by Dead or me... so, what are you trying to achieve?

Where have I attacked every person interested in the Royal Navy? I attacked hypocrisy! If you feel already attacked by such a statement... well, than you might want to think about your stance to certain Topics. €: But 2x4 8km torps (or even 10-12, depending on the Version... if it gets them)... and even faster firing guns (as Bismarck)... and guns that are even dangerous to BBs (for a cruiser)...

Again and in short: I want every ship to be treated with the same ruleset. Period. Balance can be achieved by tierlevel and damage per shell (as already done). So there are already values which are the main-balancer for the game... RoF is astonishingly not one of them. 24s = 2.5rpm... that's what we are arguing for in case you haven't realized this yet (while we still say that 2.7rpm is still realistic and the optimum as on the level of the other ships treatment). And no, the theoretical minimum was 18 seconds. You realize that German cruiser on the other hand will get huge guns which probably will be around the 20s reload time? (see for example the Deutschland-Class) Not to mention: 2.5rpm are 24s reload-time... not 20s. And... I rather have a unique BB with lower damage but higher RoF that might be a bit more dangerous to CA/CL and worse against BB, than having another BB that plays the same style as any other BB... "There are not many reasons to play cruiser"... wait, what? Please tell me you are sarcastic... €: Sure, go on with your ad hominem, as soon as someone demands the same treatment for a German ship as every other ship gets... he must be a Wehraboo... but don't you dare to say something against the "mighty" Royal Navy...

Let me get this straight... you haven't even understood my post? If so, say it, because English isn't my mother tongue... but as it seems, you haven't understood a single bit of what I was actually saying.

Domination ist ein genialer Spielmodus. Man merkt einfach, wer Ahnung davon hat die Lage auf der ganzen Map zu lesen... und wer eben nicht. Zumal gerade Domination den Angriff bevorzugt...

When I'm making fuss, I make it because I need to repeat myself... and don't care for the shown stats, I care for the idea people have about the Bismarck... I care for the ideas people have about balancing... that's what I actually argue against. This discussion is not about "buffing" or "nerfing" or whatsoever... it is about an idea.

Hell, could you please read more than the bits that fit your points? 1. We already stated that a sustained RPM of 3 wouldn't be ok, but 2.7rpm was actually done(!) 2. When we would go by "rounds shot while in Action" no ship, with a fighting Opponent, would have shot more than 1rpm... 3. WoWS uses the optimal values. "Balance"... yeah, let's just make all BBs copycats for balance-purposes. This isn't a simulator and I don't expect it to be one BUT I expect at least correct relations between the ships and thus the same treatment for all ships. If all other ships use optimal values for RoF, I expect the Bismarch to get the same Treatment (thus I should actually claim the 2.7rpm)... Balance could for example be achieved over the damage per round... thought of it this way? And I already explained why 2.3 to 2.5 makes a huge difference in dpm, while Bismarck would still have the worsed dpm on T8...

Which official Krupp document? AFAIK: Only NavWeaps uses an "official Krupp" document as a basis... but what this document exactly states, nobody knows, while NavWeaps itself states that at an angle of 4° a trained crew is able to achieve a reload time of 20s (so a rpm of 3) While, in contrary, Dead provides at least a document... and still nobody answered the question why the Bismarck should be treated differently than other ships?

@Hopper: But Wargame-Staff might want to read opinions of different communities... unfortunately, the English-Forum might be more well visited than the German one, due to the language-barrier. Thus: What is wrong in discussing this topic?

The thing is: Every other ship in the game is using the 0°-Elevation loading speeds... why making here an exception? You can balance things by the damage per round easily (due to Bismarck using a smaller caliber, with nearly equal penetration, but definitly worse damage). But sure... instead of making Bismarck a ship with clear strength and weaknesses... you can make it the same as every other BB. Also: We posted an original document above of the firing tests of the turrets and also your source states: 2.3rpm - 3rpm. Why is the RoF a Problem: Currently Bismarck has, on its Tier, 20% less dmg/min in comparison to Amagi for example, that makes it a non-starter. There is no problem in Bismarck, as a premium ship, being weaker, not at all, in fact: That should be the case... but by 20%? Not to mention the actual quite unfair Treatment of the RoF (see above). That's why we would like to see a RoF of 2.5rpm, which would make 24s reload and a DPM which is roughly 10% worse than Amagi and still worse than North-Carolina. @"muh-it's only preliminary": And? Can't we discuss the stats provided and the problems with it?

@onboard: Sure... someone is instantly a Fanboy when he is just asking for the same treatment as the rest @caldark: You seem to mix miles and kilometer. Warspite has a range of 29.5km while Bismarck of 36km.

@Takeda: You realize that every other ship gets its maximum RoF ingame (time needed to reload the gun when it is already in loading position) without modul AFAIK EXCEPT the Bismarck with the here shown stats? It should be 3rpm by that... but we know of problems during 3rpm, thus 2.7rpm should be the actual basis... 2.5rpm is a compromise... but 2.3rpm? Come on, that's not fair treatment. Especially, with 2.5rpm the Bismarck is just able to deliver 40 rounds in 2 minutes (5x8)... as much as the Amagi (4x10), while Bismarck is using a smaller caliber... Thus the RoF isn't even an advantage, it just balance the offensive capabilities out, except the caliber... you could well go with 2.7 or even 3rpm IMO and without a big problem.

Um es einmal anschaulicher zu machen: Was zählt sind duchschlagende Treffer. North Carolina: 4 Salven a 9 = 36 Granaten in 2 min Amagi: 4 Salven a 10 = 40 Granaten in 2 min Bismarck: 5 Salven a 8 = 40 Granaten in 2 min dafür aber: Mit kleinerem Kaliber, also geringer Penetrationsleistung(!!!) Resultat: Offensiv geht die Bismarck massiv schlechter raus... da kannst du dir mit deiner RoF und 3000 Kampfvermögen nichts von kaufen. Turn-Radius ist bei der Bismarck einfach falsch, der Vorteil der Turmdrehgeschwindigkeit fast vernachlässigbar. Das sind harte Fakten... €: Im Übrigen: Die 5 Salven schafft die Bismarck auch nur bei 24s Reload, den sie noch nicht hat...

Du vergisst bei den "harten Fakten" leider die Penetrationsleistung des kleineren Kalibers... Du vergisst auch, dass sich deine RoF erst nach 4 Salven auszahlt (5:4)... Du vergisst auch, das Turmdrehgeschwindigkeit nur selten wirklich entscheidend ist... Deine "harten Fakten" und deine Top-Wertung sind daher leider nicht gerade auf die Realität bezogen. 3000 mehr Kampfvermögen ist auch nicht wirklich entscheidend...

Post is raus.

Following points came up in the German community so far: 1. What is a "ZAG Type 8 mod. 1"? That's not even a German designation... it should be the "FuMO 23" or the older designation for the same system: "FMG 39G (gP)" 2. Turning Radius: 780m maximun turning radius has simply no basis. In fact Bismarck was capable, by original documents, of 650m while in full-speed... 3.RoF: Bismarck was capable of 3rpm, but because of occurring problems at a sustained firing in such a speed, it was usually only shot between 2.3rpm to 2.7rpm depending on the distance to the target (faster as closer). Current 26s RoF would be 2.3rpm... why the lowest speed possible was chosen is a mystery, especially cause in WoWS usually closer engagements are normal. Not to mention Bismarck is using a smaller caliber and lacks behind in DPM massively (€: and has quite bad AA...) Thus our suggestion: 2.5rpm - 24s RoF - 226,000 dpm (which is also backed up by original documents) Sincerely Thonar

Da ich gerade über dem Handy drin bin, könntest du mir noch einmal kurz hier sagen, wie man auf 2,7rpm kommt und welche Quelle für die 690 (? oder waren es 650?) herhalten musste? €: @Scorpio: Gutes ingame Balancing? Würde ich bei dem DPM und einem kleinerem Kaliber nicht behaupten...

Ich schreibe es hier auch nocheinmal: Schaut euch bitte mal den Turn-Radius an...

26s loading time? 22s-24s would have been more realistic and would buff its dpm a bit what she seems to need at least a bit (even for a premium). Except they made the right choice and put the Bismarck on T7... €: Ohh... and why this high turning radius?

Ach Gott ja, der gute alte Freud'sche Versprecher... wie komm ich denn auf Ruhestörung... wobei das wohl dazu ausarten könnte

NBM? Im Übrigen zeigt auch dein Link, dass die Flagge (von 1914) NICHT verboten ist (noch das Hissen strafbar), sie allerdings wegen Ruhestörung eingezogen werden kann. Nebenbei finde ich es eine Schande, dass man den Neo-Nazis so große Teile unserer Geschichte und Kultur kampflos überlässt und ihnen damit die Deutungshoheit gewährt... grausam.

Also DAS wäre mir neu... €: ... dann wäre ja euer Clansymbol verboten...

Aber... nach welchem Recht? Außerdem: Bisher hat noch niemand die Flagge der Weimarer-Republik gezeigt, die auch sehr gut passt (zumindest besser als die alberne '33-'35 Version derzeit oben gezeigt).

Naja, im Gegensatz zu der oben gezeigten Flagge von '33-'35 hätte ich auch lieber diese (1903 bis 1919): http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/cf/War_Ensign_of_Germany_1903-1918.svg/600px-War_Ensign_of_Germany_1903-1918.svg.png Oder zumindest diese ('21/'22 - '33): http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/8e/Flag_of_Weimar_Republic_%28war%29.svg/1000px-Flag_of_Weimar_Republic_%28war%29.svg.png