JeeWeeJ

Hmmm, i've seen these pictures somewhere before...don't know where.. :Smile_trollface: Thanks for posting them here kelly, very informative! @DkySven: have you managed to confirm if that image was indeed of the Eendracht class turrets? :Smile_smile:

For a bit more info, i'd like to direct you guys to the following threads on the NA forums (you can login with yor usual EU account): THIS topic about the battleships Dunkerque and Strasbourg during, which also covers operation Catapult and Atilla And THIS one about Operation Lila, the actual scuttling of the French fleet.

Thats her.

Boneripper, on 20 September 2012 - 08:35 AM, said: I had the right ship, but the wrong event. Thanks JeeWeeJ :Smile_great: You're welcome! And it was quite sad though, the French had a fine and proud navy, but this is what they lost in just one day: 3 battleships (scuttled) 7 cruisers (scuttled) 15 destroyers (scuttled) 3 destroyers (seized by Germany) 13 torpedo boats (scuttled) 6 sloops (scuttled) 12 submarines (scuttled) 4 submarines (seized by Germany) 9 patrol boats (scuttled) 19 auxiliary ships (scuttled) 1 school ship (scuttled) 28 tugs (scuttled) 4 cranes (scuttled) 39 small ships (seized by Germany) 12 killed 26 wounded :Smile_sad:

Actually, the ship on the left was the Strasbourg. From left to right: Strasbourg, Colbert, Algérie and Marseillaise. SOURCE And this is what was left of the Strasbourg after the scuttling and stripping by the Italians. Quite a sad sight actually. :Smile_sad:

DkySven, on 19 September 2012 - 10:17 PM, said: Kryssare sounds Swedish. According to Google Translate it IS swedish. And Bofors being a Swedish company i think we're on the right track here. :Smile_great:

THIS link might prove usefull. As the cruisers which were ultimately completed after the war were a modified design. If you can find out what type of gun is displayed here it might make things a bit easier (as the eendracht used a newer type i believe).

Hmm, i believe the Dutch Navy ordered 3-barrel 6" turrets for the Eendracht/Zeven Provinciën class as well. Now that i take a closer look, i see "för kryssare", which translates into "for cruisers". This might be the Triple 6" Bofors turret ordered for the initial design of the Eendracht class. (which was to have 2 triple and 2 dual 6" turrets, they were later used on the Swedish Tre Kronor class cruisers, as The Netherlands was overrun by the Germans)

Toffeegerbil, on 19 September 2012 - 09:30 PM, said: Thanks, I have done some more reading based on what you have said, and in simple terms: Germany invaded France, French supporters of the Axis created Vichy France, Charles De Gaulle opposed them and created the Free French, UK preemptively attacks Vichy fleet worried that it may be used against them, November 1942 Allies invade Vichy controlled North Africa, many Vichy Troops change sides and support Free French, Axis occupy Vichy areas as a result - causing the rest to join Allies in spite. Would you say that was right? You've got it right for the most part. The itsy-bitsy-tiny thing you forgot was that Vichy France was ultimately invaded by the Germans. And because of the British attacking the Vichy fleet in North Africa they moved it to Toulon...right where the Germans could get their hands on it. The result was the French admirals keeping their word to the British, with this as the result:

Could very well be of the K-class (or Köningsberg class) light cruisers used by the German kriegsmarine. They used triple 6" (15cm) guns.

The Montana class was about 10 meters longer than the Iowa, so that first picture is indeed incorrect. Montana: 280.57 m Iowa: 271 m

Could you please keep it english? As long as there is no special subsection for other languages english is the spoken language on these forums. Plus, there are others who'd like to get some info on spanish ships! :Smile_smile:

Too bad the budget cuts were severe enough that they actually wanted to sell these ships. As far as i know we were lucky, as noone was buying.. :Smile_sceptic:

Great piece Marcos! +1! jostie, on 17 September 2012 - 08:33 PM, said: also a dutchy ey? +1 to you for that :Smile_great: Oh, i think there are plenty of dutchies here. :Smile_glasses:

Tigger3, on 17 September 2012 - 11:03 AM, said: Operation Catapult was the operation against the French fleet by the RN in July 1940. Operation Torch was the Allied invasion of French North Africa in Nov 1942. There were quite a few 'classic' naval battles in the Med during WW2 including large surface units facing off, they are not very well known outside those who have an interest in the sphere though. Ah, yes, keep mixing those up. But as far as i know the French capital ships never got in a brawl with with big ships of the Italians.

Kameho, on 17 September 2012 - 01:23 AM, said: Feel to bad we never got to see the Italian navy and French navy in action. would have created some epic battles of WWII. Other than that. werent there a incident were the French Navy fought against the british? In Gibraltar methinks. In WW2 it was during operation Torch that the British attacked the French fleet, while still in port in Mers El Kébir and Dakar. There was never a real naval battle in the classical sense.

DkySven, on 16 September 2012 - 11:15 AM, said: That's a very nice ship. I still wonder how fast the Mediterranean campaign would have ended if the whole French Navy would have fought on next to the British. They were one of the biggest, together with the Royal Navy they would have blown the Italians out of the sea in no time. Actually, the RN wasn't planning on fighting in the Med, as they had made a deal with the French that they would keep those waters safe. That changed when France was overrun by the Germans. And the whole French navy was built to deal with the Italian navy, which had some serious ships. The Vittorio Veneto class could handle everything the French (and British) could throw at them BB wise, with the only big drawback being their inferior radar and the horrible pugliese anti-torpedo system. If the British attack at Taranto hadn't succeeded (putting 3 battleships and various cruisers temporarily out of action) they would've had serious problems. But, the French made some very fine ships with some serious tactical advantages (and disadvantages) ad crossing the T had no effect on these ships.

Right, this topic is a copy of a post i made on the NA forums, but i thought i'd post it here aswel. Here are two plans made by the Dutch government to aquire big ships with which to defend its colonial empire. Suffice to say, two big wars spoiled those plans. I might add some other Dutch ships (cruisers etc) later. Enjoy! Battleship plan 1912 In the years before the outbreak of the first world war, the Dutch government became concerned about the naval expansion of the Japanese fleet during and following the Russo-Japanese war. As The Dutch Indies (now Indonesia) were of considerable economic importance to the Dutch economy, plans were made to enlarge the fleet protecting the colonies. In 1912, the then minister of naval affairs J. Wentholt came up with the plan "Panzerschip 1912" (roughly translated into Armoured ship 1912) which called for the construction of four armoured cruisers armed with 11" guns. However the navy was against this plan, which it deemed inadequate, and wanted bigger and stronger ships. This caused quite a stir in parliament and ultimately forced the minister to resign. The new minister (then under the new name "minister of war", now called minister of defence) wasted no time and formed a committee for the design and construction of 9 battleships, to counter the Japanese threat. They were to have a displacement of 21,000 tonnes, top speed of 21 knots, an armored belt of 250mm (where 300mm was more common) and armed with 8 13" guns. At first, only the German Krupp-Germania company (which was already constructing the German Kaiser class dreadnoughts) was contacted to make three preliminary designs for these ships: Fully oil fired, fully coal fired and mixed oil-coal firing. Oil firing was preffered, even though oil (and the infrastructure for it) was still scarce within the Dutch colonial empire. Among the designs that followed, this beauty came along. As far as i can tell, this is one of the first modern battleship designs with two quadruple turrets, just like the later French Richelieu and Dunkerque class battleships. The French Lyon class with 4 4-barreled turrets was designed in the same period, but also never built. HERE you can find a 3D redering of this vessel. (Dutch site, but the video speaks for itself!) As The Netherlands did not have experience with properly designing and building capital ships, a large number of international shipbuilding companies were contacted to assist in the design and to ultimately construct the ships. Of these, only Krupp-Germania (builders of the German Kaiser class), Blohm & Voss and Vickers came with designs which were seriously considered by the Dutch government. By 1914 the max dispacement had risen to around 28,000 tonnes and the guns enlarged to 8 14"/L45 in four twin turrets and the engines would run on mixed coal and oil firing with a top speed of 22 knots. Armor was still the weak, battlecruiser like, with a maximum thickness of 250mm. In the end... In July 1914 a bill had been passed for the funding of the ships (order was scaled down to 5 or 7) and even though there was still some discussion going about which design to choose (even though the Krupp-Germania design was apparently preffered), the first keel would been laid down in December of that year with the ships being completed in 1918. However, the War spoiled those plans and no keels were ever laid down. In 1920 and 1921 a new Royal Commission investigated the need for new ships to defend the Dutch colonial empire, but did not recommend to construct battleships. This ruling, combined with the growing pacifist movement of that time pretty much killed off the project...until the 1930 battlecruiser project came along (more on that later). In hindsight The latest designs of the Dutch dreadnoughts were relatively up to spec with dreadnoughts or battlecruisers of other nations, except in one area: armor and seconday guns. Due to the relatively small dispacement of 21,000 to 28,000 tonnes, weight was saved by using a less thick armoured belt. In that respect these ships were comparable to the Japanese Kongo class battlecruisers gun and armor wise, but much slower. To sum it up: not enough armor and guns for a battleship and too slow for a battlecruiser. But maybe the relative large amout of ships (5 to 9 planned ships) might have made up for that...we'll never know! So...How about some battlecruisers? In the 1930's the navy once again became convinced that the two light WW1 cruisers of the Java class, a fleet of submarines and a few old armored gunboats were not enough to protect the Dutch Indies agains possible Japanese aggression. It was believed that if a war with Japan broke out, it would send the bulk of its large ships to fight the Americans and the British, leaving their cruisers to fight the Dutch forces. So the Dutch navy began a project to aquire three "super cruisers" along the "stronger than faster, faster than stronger" line of thought. Dutch intelligence did not expect the Japanese cruisers to be escorted by carriers, so even the threat of these ships in port (as a fleet in being) would be enough to discourage the Japanese of invading Dutch territory. Design In 1939 the go-ahead was given to begin the planning and design of these ships. Top speed was to be 32 knots, 9 11"guns in three turrets and a considerable secondary battery of dual purpose 120mm guns and 40mm AA guns. As with the dreadnoughts, the Dutch were incapable of designing a modern capital ship so they turned to other countries. At first they turned to the French in the hope that they would release plans to their Dunkerque class battleships. But as this turned out to be a futile effort, the Dutch turned to their easterly neighbours: Nazi Germany.After a number of rounds of negotiations, the Germans agreed to release rough schematics of "a battlecruiser in line with the German school of shipbuilding" (which looked A LOT like the Scharnhorst class). At first this was even without the armor protection scheme but after later negotiations these were also released except the part below the water line. The Dutch faced two problems with the German design: They did not trust the all-diesel propulsion system and favoured a steam turbine setup. (but there wasnt enough room in the design) The design totally lacked torpedo defences as the Germans refused to release these. The first problem was to be solved by enlarging the engine room, but this ment sacrificing armour to keep within the 16,000 tonnes displacement limit. (as the Dutch were not involved with the naval treaties, they did not have to adhere to the 10,000 tonnes limit for cruisers)The second problem was solved with the help of the Italians. They gave the Dutch permission to inspect their Vittorio Veneto battleship and its protection scheme AND the Italians knew a thing or two about the German Scharnhorst. The result of this trip was a complete rework of the internal subdivision of the ship and resulted in better protection against magnetic torpedoes with the use of a reworked double bottom. The latter had to be abandoned however, as it would exceed the maximum draft specified. And in the end...part 2 Up to March 1940 Dutch delegations went to Berlin to discuss the designs with 1944 as an estimated delivery year for the first ship, but just like with the dreadnoughts, war reared its ugly head and things ground to a halt. In May of that same year, Germany invaded The Netherlands so you could say that all work was for nothing. 1047 class compared to the Scharnhorst class In contrast to the earlier dreadnought designs, the class 1047 would be one of the finest battlecruisers designed in that time. It's armor would be a bit weaker than its Scharnhorst counterpart, but in all other aspects it would have been better. More reliable engines, twin smokestacks which improved engine performance even further, better elevation for the main guns, far superior anti-air systems (the 40mm Bofors emplacements with Hazemeyer mounts were also used on Dutch destroyers, and were later copied by the British and Americans to become the Mark IV twin mount (RN) and MK 1 and 2 guns for the USN...some of the most effective AA guns of the war). Also the use of dual purpose secondary guns instead of single purpose enhanced its effectivenes even further. Concluding / TL;DR For a small navy (with a big history i might add) the Dutch had big plans for big ships, but every time they were ready to place the order war broke out. Their effectiveness in WW2 if they had been built would have been questionable though. Especially considering Japanese airpower and the use of long lance torpedoes. MAYBE that the battle of the Java sea would have turned out differently, but that's a big if. Thank you for reading, and i hope to see some more lesser known beauties on these forums! :) Sources: Wikipedia (plan 1912) Wikipedia (class 1047) Netherlandsnavy.nl (plan 1912) Netherlandsnavy.nl (class 1047)

0ptImuS_Pr1mE, on 15 September 2012 - 12:42 PM, said: If I read ok they said they will go up to 1970. Kiev class sink around 1975 so maybe some ship (Kiev, Minsk) :Smile_unsure: Actually, they devs have stated that the game will feature ships up to 1950, so no missile cruisers and the like. Anyway, just like the Germans, the Russians will have a lot of "paper" ships. I think they had a number of carrier projects in the design phase, but they never got built. But they probably wont have as many CV's as the USN, IJN and RN had.

Sounds like a plan good sir! ;)

GIAMarcos, on 14 September 2012 - 09:19 PM, said: Good to see some Dutch pride on this forum! I've been on the 7 provinciën once as well as a lot of other navy ships. This one is one of the nicest imho. Yup, also working hard on indoctrinatin the yanks on the NA forums. :Smile_playing: GIA_OldMan, on 15 September 2012 - 10:44 AM, said: They are now re-building the orginal 'zeven provincien' : http://www.bataviawe...provincien.html Yup, at the same place where they built the Batavia i believe.

Battleship usually fired APC (Armor Piercing Capped) or APCBC (Armor Piercing Capped Ballistic Capped), AP rounds with special caps at the nose for better penetration and ballistic properties. HE rounds were also used a lot, usually to ruin everything that was outside of the armored citadel of a capital ship. These were rounds fired by the Yamato: note: you can clearly see the cap on the top of the right shell. The left shell is without its cap.

Dark_Kickflip, on 14 September 2012 - 03:03 PM, said: As far as i know, this class has some pretty similarities to the german F124 "Sachsen" class, at least in the structure. But i guess it's kind of a joint project. It was! They were both designed around the SMART-L and APAR radars and i believe they share some technologies. Still, those German ships are pretty sexy! :Smile_great:

So, i thought it'd be fun to write a little post on one of the largest fleets during WW1: the german High Seas Fleet, or Hochseeflotte. Enjoy, but LONG POST WARNING! The German Hochseeflotte Origins At the end of the 19th century, Brittain was the undisputed ruler of the waves. Many countries tried to compete, but all failed in the end. The Royal Navies ships were many, her crews well trained and her deeds and heroes were legendary. But in the middle of that same century, a new european power arose. After two wars with Austria-Hungary and France the German states were united under the rule of Kaiser Wilhelm the first, the first Kaiser (Emperor) of das Deutches Reich, the German Empire. Under Kaiser Wilhelm I and his Chancellor Otto von Bismarck the German Empire quickly evolved into a economic and industrial powerhouse. Creating a vast rail network, industrial sites and implemented laws to create one of the first welfare states. So you could say life was good for the Germans...this changed when Wilhem I died, aged 91. He was succeeded by his son, Frederick III, which died only 99 days later of cancer at the age of 56. So here we introduce Kaiser Wilhelm II, son of Frederick and Princess Victoria (yes, the one from the UK), and grandson of Queen Victoria, the ruler of the British Empire. And to be honest: he was a bit of a loony. He turned out to be a militaristic, reckless and autoritarion ruler who had a habit of turning friends into enemies.He was also jealous, jealous of the British Empire and the Royal Navy to be exact. Under his rule Germany aquired colonies in Africa and Asia and...fully supported Admiral von Tirpitz in the creation of a navy to "secure Germanies survival". Tirpitz came with a "risk theory", stating that if Germany built ships to a ration of 2:3 when compared to the Royal Navy, it would be strong enough to damage the RN in such a way that even when defeated it would cause the Royal navy to lose its place as strongest navy in the world. But being German, he didnt concider losing to be an option anyway. In 1898 the first German naval law was passed by the Reichstag (the German government), allowing the construction of 19 battleships (pre-dreadnoughts), 8 coastal defence ships, 6 large- and 18 small cruisers and 12 divisions of torpedo boats. After the Boer war and Boxer rebellion the second naval law was passed, allowing these numbers to be doubled to 38 battleships, 20 large cruisers and 38 small cruisers. Quite ambitious, no? Dreadnoughts? Yes please! So, Germany started building ships. The British reaction? Initially not really impressed, they were more busy with the French and Russian navies of the time...until the moment that the British public got wind of the German plans (and having heard of Germany's industrial capacity) they were genuinely concerned. At this time Admiral John Fisher took over as the First Sea Lord and greatly reformed the navy. Brittain formed alliances with France and Japan so it could move more battleships to the North Sea and stated "Our only probable enemy is Germany. Germany keeps her whole Fleet always concentrated within a few hours of England. We must therefore keep a Fleet twice as powerful concentrated within a few hours of Germany." And if this didnt mess up German plans for naval supremacy, the launch of HMS Dreadnought messed it up even more. Tirpitz's response? Three amendments to his naval laws, ordering the construction of 24 battleships (dreadnoughts), 8 battlecruisers and 18 light cruisers. Note that up to 1912 (when the last amendment was passed) Germany and Great Brittain tried to reach a compromise in an effort to de-escalate this arms race, but both nations refused to back down. It is interesting to note that Brittain at this point had lost interest in a classic "decisive battle" and had already made plans to blockade German ports, as they actually did during the war. So, what capital ships did they actually build? (up to 1918) In a short time, the Germans managed to build a remarkable amount of ships including a whole lot of torpedoboats, destroyers and various cruisers. But as these are too numerous, i'll just stick with the capital ships. For a full list. see HERE Pre-Dreadnoughts Brandenburg class: 4 built Kaiser Friedrich III class: 5 built Wittelsbach class: 5 built Braunschweig class: 5 built Deutschland class: 5 built Dreadnoughts Nassau class: 4 built Helgoland class: 4 built Kaiser class: 5 built Köning class: 4 built Bayern class: 4 planned, 2 built Battlecruisers Von der Tann class: 1 built Moltke class: 2 built Seydlitz class: 1 built Derfflinger class: 3 built Further planned capital ships Mackensen class battlecruiser: 4 planned and under construction Ersatz Yorck class battlecruiser:3 planned, 1 under construction Note that it was German (and Austian) policy not to name ships before they are launched, "ersatz" means "replacement", therefore the Ersatz Yorck class were replacements for the older Yorck class armored cruisers. This adds up to 24 pre-dreadnoughts, 14 dreadnoughts (with 2 under construction) and 7 battlecruisers (with 5 under construction and 2 more planned). Not exactly the numbers Tirpitz wanted, but still quite an achievement, considering Germany didn't have the number of shipyards Brittain had. Differences from British Dreadnoughts Generally speaking, the German dreadnoughts were roughly equals to their British counterparts. The major difference is that German ships were more heavily armored, sacrificing speed and firepower for durability. This was probably done to compensate for the smaller number of ships Germany could field against Brittain, but at this moment i can't find a reliable source to back this up. Anyway, because of this earlier German dreadnought generally had smaller guns than their British counterparts, putting 11" guns against British 12" guns and 12" guns against 13.5" guns. Only the Bayern class was (gun-wise) an equal to the British Queen Elizabeth and Revenge classes, but was heavily outnumbered by them (2 Bayerns against a total of 10 QE's and Revenges). However, as the battle of Jutland and the battle of the Falklands proved, German gunnery was more accurate and their shells more reliable, which negated this difference somewhat. The fleet in action I will not go in detail with all the actions undertaken by the Highseas fleet, but will list the most important ones: First Battle of Heligoland Bight: First naval battle of the war, German defeat with the loss of 1 destroyer Action of 22 September 1914: Destruction of 3 British cruisers by 1 u-boat Raid on the British coast: bombardment of 3 British towns, caused quite a fuss in the UK. Firstbattle of Dogger Bank: The first action involving battlecruisers from both sides. And ofcourse the battle of Jutland: the battle which had to decide naval supremacy in the North Sea, but ended in the same stalemate. Usually seen as a German tacical victory (more ships sunk), but a British strategic victory as the British could maintain their blockade of German ports. Also worthy of note are the actions of Vice Admiral Maximilian von Spee, namely the Battle of Coronel and The battle of the Falkland Islands The end of a fleet At the end of the war the fleet did not fulfill its desired goal: gain supremacy over the North Sea from the Royal Navy. The policy of the Kaiser didn't help much either: for any major fleet action he had to personally give his approval. This resulted in the fleet being more in port than out of it. This combined with the overall progress of the war resulted in passive resistance onboard ships in 1917 to a full mutiny in the last days before the armistice of 1918, preventing one final fleet action. After the armistice, the entire hochseeflotte was escorted to the British naval base of Scapa Flow (under the escort of a massive allied fleet of 370 warships) where the ships, together with a skeleton crew, were held captive until the victorious nations had decided wat to do with them. On the 21st of June 1919, while the bulk of the British fleet were out on maneuvers, read admiral Ludwig von Reuter ordered all ships to be scuttled, to prevent them from falling into enemy hands. (as two days later the formal peace treaty was signed, formally handing over the entire fleet to the British. Exactly that which von Reuter wished to avoid, but he was unaware that it had been delayed by two days, the 21st was the original deadline of the treaty) This caused the allies to call German navy personel cowards and "men without honor", but British Admiral Wemyss later said: "I look upon the sinking of the German fleet as a real blessing. It disposes once and for all the thorny question of the redistribution of these ships" When Admiral van Reuter and his men returned to Germany they were recieved as heroes, with Admiral Scheer (the German commander of the Battle of Jutland) saying: "I rejoice. The stain of surrender has been wiped from the escutcheon of the German Fleet. The sinking of these ships has proved that the spirit of the fleet is not dead. This last act is true to the best traditions of the German navy." Was it worth it? Was it worth it to build such a grand fleet? In my opinion: no. The German fleet would always have been outnumbered by the British, no matter how many hig quality ships they build. Also the creation of the hochseeflotte put a tremendous strain on the German economy. It was the first time in Germany's history that it had to borrow money, just for some warships. However, did this fleet start the war? Yes and no. Yes, it did start an naval armsrace which still has no equal. However, it was the militaristic an authoritarian rule of Kaiser Wilhelm II that actually did the most damage. He destroyed all friendly ties Germany had with Brittain (as they were quite friendly during the reign of Wilhelm I) out of jealousy and, more or less, forced Austria-Hungary to invade Serbia after the assasination of Franz-Ferdinant. And the rest is history.

Two more invisible posts by test129!!! ITS A CONSPIRACY I TELL YOU!!!! Now where did i put my tinfoil hat?? :Smile_hiding: