JeeWeeJ

Vond der Tann is actually a battlecruiser, Nassau would be the equal to Kawachi. My guess for a German BB tree: 3 - Nassau/Helgoland 4 - Kaiser 5 - König 6 - Bayern 7 - Bismarck 8 - L20Alpha 9 - H39 10 - H41 For Battlecruisers 3 - Von der Tann 4 - Moltke 5 - Seydlitz 6 - Derfflinger 7 - Mackesen 8 - Scharnhorst 9 - Ersatz Yorck 10 - O-Project

Nioce find! Never heard of these!

Oooh, ships of the Kaiserliche und Königliche Kriegsmarine! Took some digging but I also have some nice pictures of those. Closeup of two of SMS Tegetthoff's turrets... And on the inside of one of those turrets SMS Erzherzog Friedrich of the Erzherzor Karl-class The enige room of SMS Erzherzog Karl SMS Admiral Spaun And not really WW1, but by request: The mighty Hood

Let me throw a bit more obscure picture in here HNLMS De Ruyter in warpaint, just before the battle of Java Sea. In color it would look like this

Well, they have been named before: but Das Boot is my #1 naval movie of all time. Hunt for Red October being a close second. Yes, I know they're about those blasphemous contraptions that can sink and then come back up again...but they are awesome movies nonetheless. Especially Das Boot is a good portrayal of life in a U-boot during WW2 without glorifying one specific side of the war, as other movies tend to do. And as DDGesicht already said: the soundtrack is just brilliant.

General A repost of what I posted on the NA forums as part of the "Today in WW1 and WW2" topics we do there, thought I'd share it with you lot too. :) Ships/events of interest for today 1909 – Goeben – Moltke class - Laid Down 1914 - Heligoland Bight - Battle 1917 – Nagato – Nagato class - Laid Down 1931 – Yasoshima - Ning Hai class - Laid Down 1940 - Attilio Regolo - Capitani Romani class - Launched 1944 – Implacable – Implacable class - Commissioned General stats Allies: 31 surface ships laid down, 52 launched, 51 commissioned, 5 lost Germany: 1 laid down, 3 sunk Italy: 1 ship launched Japan: 2 laid down 1914 With World War 1 (it wasn't even called like that yet) just barely a month old it was just a matter of time before the first naval battle would take place. The naval arms race between the United Kingdom and the German Empire had been one of the main reasons why this war broke out in the first place and a lot of people expected that this war would be won or lost on the waves of the North Sea. Ofcourse, the Admirals on both sides weren't stupid: rushing headlong into eachother would mean an insane loss of men and materiel, so more devious plans were laid out. One of these plans was a combined effort from Commodore Roger Keyes and Commodore Reginals Tyrwhitt. Keyes was in command of a flottilla of submarines while Tyrwhitt commanded a group of destroyers, both based in Harwich. They had both noted that the Germans had a more-or-less fixed patrol schedule for sending out destroyer patrols into the North Sea. They reckoned that if the British were to intercept one of these patrols they would be able to do major damage and, even better, might even be able to lure the German High Seas Fleet out of hiding and finish the German naval threat swiftly. Commodore Keyes (photo taken in 1918 where he's an Admiral) The Commodores presented their plan to Churchill, which called for submarines being placed on the Heligoland Bight which would surface in the evening when the German patrol was returning home. The surfaced subs would then lure the Germans to an overwhelming force of 31 British destroyers which would make quick work of the Germans. Meanwhile other submarines would be on guard duty in case the Germans would deploy their heavy hitters. Ofcourse, this group of subs would in no way ensure that the Germans would remain locked in their harbours, so the Commodores requested that the entire Grand Fleet be moved south in order to meet this threat. In addition to this they requested a form of quick-response unit in the form of a light cruiser squadron under the command of Commodore Goodenough. The First Lord of the Admiralty Winston Churchill applauded the boldness of the plan and so did his Admirals, but they didn't accept it without some major changes. Most importantly the Grand Fleet would not be moved south as they did not believe the Germans would take the bait. Secondly they demanded the time schedule be changed from nighttime to 08:00 in the morning. While the backup as requested wasn't approved, this didn't mean some serious backup for the destroyers was provided in the form of two Cruiser Forces. Cruiser Force C consisting of the Cressy-class armored cruisers HMS Cressy, HMS Aboukir, HMS Bachante, HMS Hogue and HMS Euryalus. In addition to this Cruiser Force K was also assigned as backup. And these were the much more heavy hitting BATTLEcruisers HMS New Zealand and HMS Invincible. HMS New Zealand during the battle of Heligoland Bight The destroyer force would be made up of two flottillas: the 3rd Flottilla made up of 16 brand new L-class destroyers led by Commodore Tyrwhitt in the brand new light cruiser HMS Arethusa, which had arrived just days before the battle would commence, and the 1st Flottilla made up of 16 older destroyers under command of Captain Blunt in the light cruiser HMS Fearless. As the pieces started to come together, a date was picked on which great glory was to be brought to the Royal Navy: August 28th. Even though everything was now approved by the admiralty, there was one man which was informed of all this on the last minute: the commander of the Grand Fleet himself - Admiral Jellicoe. As Jellicoe realised what was about to happen he immediately requested permission to send reinforcements south. This was granted and in one stroke the hitting power of the backup forces was doubled: Jellicoe sent Commodore Goodenough and his 1st Cruiser Squadron (made up of six light cruisers) south together with a certain man you might know: Vice Admiral David "there seems to be something wrong with our bloody ships today" Beatty together with his battlecruisers HMS Lion, HMS Queen Mary and HMS Princess Royal. The total force, including backups, was now made up of 33 destroyers (Commodore Keyes led his subs from the additional destroyer HMS Lurcher), 5 armored cruisers, 8 light cruisers and 5 battlecruisers. In addition to this eight submarines would be active in the area in order to lure the Germans away AND to convince the Germans to stay in port. A good force for a severe blow, one could say. The battle So, with the forces the British assembled one might think they could just swoop in, sink all the German ships they found and be back in time for tea and scones, right? Well, no. As it turned out there would be some healty doses of bad luck on both sides...but especially on the German one. On the early morning of August the 28th 1914 Tyrwhitt in his Arethusa steamed towards the point intercept with his sixteen destroyers, followed by the six ligt cruisers under Goodenough when around 07:00 they encountered the lone German destroyer G-194. Even though the viewing distance was only around three miles, the commander of the German destroyer knew that this was a BAD™ situation and immediately headed back to the Heligoland Bight. One thing the Germans had fully embraced was radio communication, and the German squadron commander, Rear Admiral Maass, was immediately informed on the inbound British taskforce. Maass in turn reported all this to his superior of the area, Rear Admiral Hipper, who also commanded the German 1st Scouting Group battlecruiser squadron. Hipper was aparently unaware of the scope of the attack, but ordered the light cruisers SMS Stettin and SMS Frauenlob to defend the destroyers while an additional six cruisers in port were ordered to raise steam for immediate departure. In the mean time the British were engaging the German destroyers which had realized that they were in a bad spot and headed for home before coming under heavy fire. But the Germans had an ace up their sleeve: heavy coastal artillery. So Maasse requested immediate fire support to cover their retreat, but remember the limited visibility I mentioned earlier? Well, that had started to change into a heavy mist making it impossible for the artillery gunners to determine which ship was German and which was not. The coastal fortifications on the island of Heligoland With the Germans in full retreat Tyrwhitt was in hot pursuit of his targets, with the sound of gunfire his only indication of where to go due to the ever increasing mist. But at 07:58 the tables were turned when Stettin and Frauenlob arrived on the scene, forcing the British destroyers (both destroyer flottillas had me tup by now) were forced to retreat to their light cruiser flottilla leaders. While Stettin escorted the German destroyers to safety, Frauenlob was engaged by Arethusa. Keep in mind that Frauenlob was a ship of the Gazelle-class, the first type of proper light cruisers ever built...and were considered extremely weak and pretty much obsolete at the outbreak of the war while Arethusa was a state of the art ship which was barely a year old, on paper more than capable to take on the elderly German cruiser. HMS Arethusa But being so new turned out to be a problem, rather than an advantage: the new 4" Mark V guns were prone to jamming, and two of the four 4" guns she had jammed after just a few rounds fired with another one being taken out quickly by the German guns, leaving her with two 6" guns and one operational 4" guns versus the four 4" guns of the Frauenlob. The elderly German lady was albe to do significant damage to this new Girl on the block, but not without taking some serious hits herself. One 6" shell hit her bridge, killing her captain and additional hits brought the death count up to 37, forcing her to withdraw to Wilhelmshaven. V-187 in happier times Meanwhile, the cruisers under Goodenough continued with the plan and managed to intercept another group of six German destroyers, which they managed to attack from two sides. They managed to sink one, the V-187. Being a more civilized age, a rescue operation was stated as soon as the fighting stopped...only to be disturbed by Stettin going full Rambo. While racing towards the British all guns blazing she was spotted and fired at by the British submarine E4. Ofcourse, not really appreciating the attempt of ramming a torpedo into their flanks Stettin did the only thing a cruiser at the time could do against a submarine at periscope depth: RAMMING SPEED! Unfortunately for the Germans, E4 anticipated this and dove deep. As the fighting moved out of the immediate area she resurfaced for some proper gentlemanly action: she approaced the German survivors of the V-187 AND the British sailors who were lowered into rowing boats to rescue them. She took aboard the British sailors while supplying the Germans with a compass so they could make it to the shore. As time went on the battle became a game of cat and mouse, with the British believing that there were now at least four German cruisers in the area while at the time it was just Stettin hunting the British. But around 11:30 the battle was joined by the four German cruisers which had been scrambled: SMS Cöln, SMS Strassburg, SMS Ariadne and SMS Mainz. With this new threat apprearing one the British scope one by one and the tide rising, allowing the German big boys to leave port, the British had to act fast. With the battle raging the cruisers under Goodenough found Mainz to be separated from the rest of the cruisers as she engaged the destroyer flottilla under Tyrwhitt and Goodenough decided to help out. Badly outgunned and outnumbered, Mainz attempted to retreat when she took a hit to her steering mechanism, forcing her to turn into her opponents (not unlike Bismarck 30-ish years later). Taking multiple shell and torpedo hits and pretty much out of action, her captain ordered her to be scuttled. Seeing what was going on, Commodore Keyes in Lurcher came alongside to take her crew onboard...another thing we didn't see in WW2. SMS Mainz sinking In the mean time, Strassburg and Cöln joined the fight together and posed a serious threat to the British force which, while not losing a single ship, had taken quite the beating. But Beatty, against orders, had decided that enough was enough. With the ever growing risk of Hipper joining the fight with his battlecruisers Beatty decided that he would end things. And as a destroyer officer described it: "There straight ahead of us in lovely procession, like elephants walking through a pack of ... dogs came Lion, Queen Mary, Princess Royal, Invincible and New Zealand ...How solid they looked, how utterly earthquaking. We pointed out our latest aggressor to them ... and we went west while they went east ... and just a little later we heard the thunder of their guns." Suffice to say, the Germans had nothing they could throw against there behemoths with any chance of winning and tried to retreat. Cöln was the first victim to the 12" guns and was quickly disabled, but not sinking. She was saved from that, for the moment, due to the battlecruisers spotting Ariadne, another old lady of Gazelle-class. Ariadne turned around to flee, but could not outrun the much faster battlecruisers and was quickly taken down. A painting of SMS Ariadne being hunted down by Beatty's battlecruisers With the tide ever rising, Beatty (being the highest ranking officer) ordered the withdrawal. On their way back Beatty's force once again passed the disabled Cöln and a few salvo's of 12" fire sealed her fate. Of the crew of 250 men (amoch which her commander Rear Admiral Maass), only one was recued a few days later. Around 14:00 the British forces left the area following Beatty's orders, which had proven to be the right decision as just one hour later Rear Admiral Hipper arrived with three battlecruisers, but by then the battle was already over. Senior stoker Olf Neumann, the only survivor of the SMS Cöln Aftermath Ofcourse the battle was a great victory for the British, they sank three light cruisers, one destroyer and three torpedo boats while losing no ships themselves. But they had taken a huge risk: they had sent out battlecruisers without any anti-submarine defences to run around in mine-infested German coastal waters. It was that the Germans hadn't actually expected the British to use battlecruisers so close to the shore that they had not placed their own on standby. Added to this the fact that the low tide prevented the German battlecruisers to leave harbor was more luck than wisdom on the British behalf. Painting of the British battlecruisers finishing off SMS Cöln But more importantly, the losses taken by the German navy were not taken well by Kaiser Wilhelm, a great fan of "his" navy. Dreading more losses, he decreed that no major naval actions were to be undertaken unless he gave his personal permission, to the outrage of Grand Admiral Tirpitz who was not consulted on the matter. The German navy was now trapped in port by their own emperor. A positive effect for the Germans was that they had learned that constant destroyer patrols were a waste of time and money. Instead the Germans opted for a more passive defence: massive defensive minefields. Later, in 1917, a second battle would take place in this area, but of much smaller scale. Sources Firstworldwar.com Britishbattles.com History.com Wikipedia

Yeah, when you do it in the editor it works...but I have a severe distrust of the editor since a few updates back it tended to bugger up all my posts longer than a few sentences. So I'll just keep working with non-functional BB codes in the hope it gets fixed soon.

Funny thing that, it doesn't show when you post it. Somehow the forum just decides "SCREW THEM BB-CODES!" and starts to ignore them.. I know, because I double checked when I posted, and it looked fine! [EDIT] even when I edit the post in the full editor and preview it, it looks the way it's supposed to look...but when I save it, it just reverts back to this state... [/EDIT]

Sooo, who let Canadian out? I thought we agreed not letting him on here?

I posted this on the NA forums for the "Today in WW1 and WW2" topics, but thought I'd share it here. For a list of all the dailies, check HERE 1917 So, the Derfflingers! The famous Iron Dogs! Where to begin? Well, lets go back a bit and take a look at German battlecruisers in General. When Admiral "Jackie" Fisher took the world by suprise with HMS Dreadnought, it wasn't the only revolutionary thing he had in the works. He also wanted to change the way cruiser warfare worked (up to then taken care of by protected- and armored cruisers) with his brand new battlecruisers of the Invincible-class. Armed with battleship-grade guns and powered by as many of the most powerful engines that could be squeezed into the hull, they took the world, and especially the Germans, by suprise. But the idea behind them, that speed would make up for the lack of armor, was controversial from the start. With Germany clearly a step behind the British at this point, there raged a fierce debate amongst the Admiralty and the engineers how Germany should react to these new British ships, as their then most powerful cruiser, SMS Blücher, was clearly unable to match the Invincibles in terms of speed and firepower. Großadmiral Tirpitz, the chancellor of the navy, favoured the way the British handled things. Speed would be essential, who needed armor anyway? Luckily, the rest of the admiralty and Kaiser Wilhelm II had a more sensible line of thought and strongly disagreed. They reasoned that the German navy would never be able to outnumber the British and that if more capital ships were to be built, they should be able to take their place in the line of battle, which means that they should be capable of taking some punishment. And if speed is your armor, you have no armor in a battle line as its speed is dictated by the slowest ship, a point which would be proven to be right in the later battle of Jutland. Derfflinger in port So, in 1908 the first German battlecruiser was ordered: SMS Von der Tann. She was VERY different from the British battlecruisers and defined the German approach to this class of ship. She had smaller, faster firing guns than her British counterparts (11" vs 12") and was slightly slower. But when it came to armor she had almost twice the armor thickness of the Invincibles. It would take the British nine years to build a battlecruiser with the same level of armor protection as the Von der Tann: HMS Hood. And with the following classes this protection would only get better and better, with some forumites here (me included) sometimes calling them "light battleships", which isn't far off from the truth. Anyway, after SMS Von der Tann came the ships of the Moltke-class SMS Moltke and SMS Goeben and the one ship class SMS Seydlitz. And then came the mighty Derfflingers. Unlike the British, which pretty much built a gazillion ships at the same time, the Germans didn't have the financial nor the shipyard capacity to match them. Because of this, the three ships of the Derfflinger-class were spread out over three financial years. SMS Derfflinger was approved under the 1911-1912 shipbuilding programme, SMS Lützow under the 1912-1913 programme and SMS Hindenburg was approved under the 1913-1914 programme. A result of this was that the German engineers had some time to improve on the design, causing some sources to claim that Hindenburg is acutally an entirely sepate class, or a subclass of the Derfflinger-class. SMS Derfflinger just before being launched But more on that later! Because the Derfflingers themselves were actually quite a revolutionary design in the German navy. All previous battlecruiser designs could still trace their roots back to the good old large armored cruiser SMS Blücher: heavily armored, turrets in an en-echelon position etc. The Derfflingers were the first completely new design, and it showed! They featured a flush deck, which was a first in German capital ship design and in order to survive the new, powerful British battleships (yes, they were intended to survive battleships, not battlecruisers which was what the British were aiming at) overall armor protection was increased by 30mm (roughly 1"). This increase in armor ofcourse meant an increase in weight, which resulted in loss of speed and an increase in costs. So various weight saving measures were put in place: during construction the hull was built using only longitudinal frames instead of a mix of longitudinal and transverse, which meant less steel was needed. The torpedo bulkheads were used as coal bunkers, the number of turrets for the main battery was brought down from five to four, but all were place in a superfiring setup on the centerline. In order to compensate for the loss of two guns, the Derfflingers were upgunned to use the 305mm (12")/50 SK L/50, which were also used by the dreadnoughts of the Helgoland, Kaiser and König-classes. SMS Hindenburg and SMS König Albert All this meant that, compared to the earlier Seydlitz the total displacement rose with 2,000 tons to 26,180 tons standard. And then there was the Hindenburg. As stated earlier, the engineers had some more time to improve on the Derfflinger design before construction started...and improve they did!Hindenburg was slightly enlarged, being 2.5m longer than the other two ships. This extra space was used to rearrange the boilers resulting in more efficient steaming. So efficient in fact that the engines of Hindenburg were capable of producing 10,000shp extra! But that wasn't all! The gun mounts for the 12" guns were upgraded from the Drh LC/1912 to the Drh LC/1913 type, increasing gun elevation from 13.5 degrees to 16 degrees, which resulted in giving the guns an extra range of 2 kilometers (2,200 yards). For the secondary battery, the extra 2.5m space was used two place two extra 15cm guns and the torpedo tubes were upgraded from 50cm to 60cm. In all, quite the upgrade! Ships in class SMS Derfflinger Laid down: 03-30-1912 Launched: 07-17-1913 Commissioned: 09-01-1914 Fate: Scuttled on 06-21-1919 in Scapa Flow SMS Lützow Laid down: Sometime during May in 1912 at the Schichau Werft, Danzig Launched: 10-29-1913 Commissioned: 08-08-1915 Fate: Scuttled at 06-01-1916 due to damage suffered at the Battle of Jutland SMS Hindenburg Laid down: 06-30-1913 at the Kaiserlische Werft in Wilhelmshaven Launched: 08-01-1915 Commissioned: 05-10-1917 Fate: Scuttled on 06-21-1919 in Scapa Flow Service Life The Derfflingers, except Hindenburg had quite the active service lives and as they were all part of the 1st Scouting Group their histories are quite similar. Beginning with Derfflinger (as the rest wasn't operational at that time), she was active from the start of the war. She was present at the bombardment of the British coastal towns of Scarborough, Hartlepool and Whitby, but was not engaged by British forces. This would be different during the Battle of Dogger Bank, where the German raiding group was intercepted by a force of British battlecruisers...and this is where the BIG difference between the British and German battlecruiser designs became apparent. Painting of SMS Lützow during the Battle of Jutland While the battle was lost by the Germans, losing the armored cruiser Blücher in the process, the German battlecruisers proved to be superior over their British counterparts. British shells tended to do relatively little damage on the German capital ships, where the smaller German shells proved to be quite capable to tear through the flimsy British armor. While the Germans lost Blücher the British very nearly lost their flagship HMS Lion as shells from Derfflinger knocked out her engines leaving her pretty much dead in the water. While SMS Seydlitz narrowly averted a magazine explosion due to a flash fire, the other German battlecruisers suffered no noticable damage. SMS Derfflinger firing a salvo In the following action Derfflinger's sister ship Lützow joined the fight during the raid on Yarmouth and Lowestoft, during which they were engaged by the cruisers of Harwich force, engaging them at a range of 12 kilometers (13,000 yards), severely damaging the cruiser HMS Conquest. Initially chasing the British ships, the Germans turned back after reports of British submarines and possible torpedo attacks. And then came Jutland. THE naval battle of all naval battles (in my honest opinion at least). Both Derfflinger and Lützow were part of Admiral Hipper's 1st Scouting group which sailed ahead of the main body if the German Fleet, with Lützow acting as Hipper's flagship. After contact was made, a fierce gunnery duel began between the German and British battlecruiser squadrons. During this part of the battle the British, due to their poor armor and cordite handling got the short end of the stick, with the two Derfflingers playing a big part in the destruction of two British battlecruisers. HMS Queen Mary was the first one to go up in a great ball of fire after being simultaneously hit by three 12" shell from Derfflingers 12" guns. An hour and a half later Lützow was engaged and hit eight times by HMS Invincible. Not taking kindly to the damage inflicted, both Lützow and Derfflinger turned their attention towards the British battlecruiser and ten minutes later a salvo from one of the two German ships (sources vary which one shot the killing round) found Invincibles forward magazine, causing the ship to go up in a massive explosion. Derfflinger after Jutland But Invincible didn't go down without a fight, the eight hits scored on Lützow actually ultimately doomed the German ship, causing a flooding which, in the end, became uncontrollable. As her speed dropped to 15 knots she dropped out of formation and attempted to withdraw on her own. With the forward magazine flooding, her crew attemted to store as many propellant charges as possible in the shell handling room, but she would no longer need them. Around 19:50 Admiral Hipper left the ship to board one of the other battlecruisers while torpedo boats started to lay a smokescreen in order to cover the battered German ship. the British still managed to land multiple hits, disabling one of the main turrets and destroying one of the 12" guns. While the German fleet retreated Lützow was on her own, as she couldn't keep up. Admiral Scheer hoped that Lützow would be covered by the darkness and make port on her own, as he couldn't risk reducing the speed of his fleet. Lützow never made it back. As she continues to take on more water speed dropped to a mere 7 knots before, around 01:00, the pumps could no longer cope with the amount of water coming in, with pretty much the whole bow of the ship flooded up to the conning tower and water reaching the engine rooms. The flooding prevented further repair work to be done on the spot and even steaming in reverse could not stop the flooding. At 02:20 there was a serious risk of capsizing and the order to abandon ship was given. The crew was picked up by three German torpedo boats, which finished off the sinking ship with a torpedo salvo. In all Lützow was hit at least 24 times by large caliber shells: 4x15", 12x13.5" and 8x12". While she had to be scuttled in the end, it's a testament to the durability of the German battlecruisers. Speaking of durable, Derfflinger was still in the thick of it. She was at the head of the battlecruiser line during the famous death ride of the German battlecruisers and took on the full fury of the British battleline. Dispite being hit multiple times, having her aft two turrets blown up forcing her crew to flood the magazines and taking on 3,550 tons of water, the stubborn battlecruiser refused to lay down and die and fought on desperately against overwhelming numbers of vastly more powerful ships before being allowed to retreat. SMS Lützow in better times This stubbornness to keep on fighting even though completely outmatched, outclassed and outgunned caused the British to honour her by giving Derfflinger the nickname "Iron Dog". In all she was hit at least 21 times by large caliber rounds: 10x15", 1x13.5" and 10x12". She suffered 157 deaths and 26 wounded, the most of all surviving ships of the battle. After Jutland, Derfflinger sailed to support the German forces in the second battle of Heligoland Bight, but when she arrived the British ships had fled. And what about Hindenburg? Well, being the last capital ship to be commissioned into the fleet she missed pretty much all major actions. She took part in the Advance of April 23rd of 1918, which was intended to intercept a large British convoy and lure out a part of the British fleet. Unfortunately for the Germans, the convoy had left a day later than expected so they found nothing. Photo of some of the damage taken by SMS Derfflinger during Jutland, given the bathtub, this was most likely a bathing room Both ships were planned to take part in the final sortie of the German Fleet in which they were to inflict as much damage on the British as possible before they went down, but due to the large scale mutiny of sailors, this never happened. Derfflinger and Hindenburg were both moved to Scapa flow after the armistice and were scuttled there on the 21st of June, 1919. StatsDimensions Length (Total): 210.4m (Hindenburg: 212.8m) Beam: 29.0m Draft: 8.3m Displacement: 26,180 tons standard (Hindenburg: 26,513 tons) Weapons 305cm (12")/50 SK L/50: 8 15cm (5.9")/45 SK L/45: 12 (Lützow and Hindenburg: 14) 88mm (3.5")/45 Flak L/45: 4 (None on Lützow) 50cm (19.7") torpedo tubes: 4 (Derfflinger only) 60cm (23.6") torpedo tubes: 4 (Lützow and Hindenburg) Armor Deck: 30mm Belt: 100mm-300mm Bulkheads: 100mm-250mm Command Tower: 80mm-350 Turrets: 80mm (sides), 270mm (face) Barbettes: 30mm-250mm Casemates: 150mm Engines Shafts: 2 Turbines: 2 Type: Parsons geared turbines Performance Total Performance: 66,000shp, capable of overloading to 75,000shp Speed: 32kn Range: 6800nm at 12kn Sources Conway's Battleships Revised and Expanded editionGerman-navy.deNavweaps.comTanz's awesome post on SMS Derfflinger Wikipedia

Indeed, they were intended to be escorts and cruiser killers, the German ones were more like light (or fast) battleships inteded to take part in a battleline beside their cruiser killer role.

No worries, yes, Indefatigable was the first one to go -in the battle-, being sunk by shells from SMS Von der Tann. However, what I'm getting at in my text is that Queen Mary was the first one to go at the hands of the Derfflingers, who sank the Queen Mary and Invincible. When it comes to who landed the fatal shell on Invincible: sources are unclear on this. Some (including Conways) hint towards the shell belonging to Derfflinger, but most keep it at that both Derfflinger and Lützow fired three salvos at Invincible, one shell from the third salvo hit her Q turret, which made her go up in a great ball of fire.

Yeah, can't wait for the German line! I'm going to play the crap out of it once it's released! Well, they're actually colourized photos. There's this Japanese guy that colourizes old black and white naval related photo's, the result is really awesome! I love to use them in my other daily posts, if available.

Thank you! Glad you like them!

I aim to dissapoint..

So, a while ago Teit said that the AA-ship Niobe would be a premium ships for the German line. But the Niobe isn't a German ship at all! Oh nonono, she's Dutch! The Germans only...loaned the old lady. ;-) Anyway, let me present you the HNLMS Gelderland! (known after 1940 as the KMS Niobe) The Gelderland was one of the so called Panzerdekschepen (protected cruisers) of the Holland class. A design derived from the British Apollo class. Of this class, six ships were built in two series of three, namely: First series HNLMS Holland (Laid down: 1895, in service 1898, decommissioned 1920) HNLMS Zeeland (Laid down: 1895, in service 1898, decommissioned 1924) HNLMS Friesland (Laid down: 1895, in service 1898, decommissioned 1913) Second series HNLMS Gelderland (Laid down: 1897, in service 1900, decommissioned 1940) HNLMS Noord-Brabant (Laid down: 1897, in service 1900, decommissioned 1940) HNLMS Utrecht (Laid down: 1897, in service 1900, decommissioned 1913) The service life of these ships were quite uneventful, with the exception being the Gelderland. Holland took part in defending Dutch interests during the Boxer war in China in 1900, while the Friesland and Gelderland took part in the Aceh war, in which the Dutch took control over the rest of the Indonesian island of Sumatra. After that all ships were gradually decommissioned as their designs started to be severely outdated. All but the Gelderland and Noord-Brabant were decommissioned and scrapped by 1924 and the two remaning vessels were converted to a artillery training ship (Gelderland) and accommodation ship (Noord-Brabant). The latter was set on fire by it's crew after the invasion of Germany in 1940 and was scrapped. The former however was to decommissioned in August 1939, and was waiting to be scrapped...until the Germans got their hands on her. With the Kriegsmarine always short on ships, they converted the Gelderland to a Flakschiff - a floating AA-battery. Even though she was old and horrendously outdated, the Germans obviously thought she could still serve them and after a rebuild she was commissioned as the Niobe on March 1st, 1944. She only undertook one mission under the Kriegsmarine flag. During the 1944 Soviet offensive into Finland the Germans provided aid to the Finns. Beside the aid in materiel the also sent the Niobe to help. Unfortunately for the Niobe, the Soviets were on a desperate hunt for the Finnish coastal battleship Väinämöinen. When the Soviet aerial scouts found a large vessel in Kotka harbour, they immediately assumed it was the Väinämöinen and send in a 132 (!!!) strong aerial assault to sink her. Unfortunately for the Soviets, it was the AA-cruiser Niobe. Even though the Niobe was horrendously outnumbered, she took down nine aircraft among which an A-20 Havoc bomber. She also proved to be quite a sturdy ship, taking nine hits before settling on the botom of the harbour, and even then kept on firing until it was practically impossible to do so. 70 crewmembers were lost that day. The wreck was raised in 1947 and offered to the Dutch government, but they decided to abandon her. Her wreck was scrapped in 1953. Specs Dispacement: 4030 tons standard Length: 94,76m Beam: 14.76m Draught: 5.4m Propulsion: Two 3-cycle triple expansion engines, 12 Yarrow boilers, 2 shafts, 10.500 PS Speed: (as Gelderland) 19.5kts, (as Niobe) 16kts Crew: 325 Sensors: 2× FlaK-Kommandogeräte, 1x Würzburg radar (both only on Niobe) Armament: As Gelderland: 2 x 150 mm No.3 6 x 120 mm No.2 6 x 75 mm No.2 8 x 37 mm 4 x 37mm revolver guns 2 x 75 mm A 2 x 75 mm mortars A As Niobe: 8× 10.5 cm FlaK L/45 C/32 4× 40 mm Bofors L/60 4× 20 mm (4×4) Vierlinge C/38 All pictures courtesy of Netherlandsnavy.nl

Made these posts a while ago on the NA forums, but thought i'd post them here as well. The Java class The Java class light cruisers were intended to become the backbone of the Royal Netherlands Navy and were ordered to counter the Japanese Chikuma class reconnaissance cruisers of 1912. Yes, even at that time the Dutch saw the Japanese empire as it's greatest threat even while relations were quite friendly at that time. The ships looked a lot like the German armored cruisers of the time, which is not suprising as the Java class was designed in 1912-13 by the German firm Germaniawerf in Kiel (also known as Krupp Germaniawerf, the shipyard that built quite a lot of German capital ships and u-boot's during the various wars). They were designed around a main armament of 10 10.5cm Bofors guns in single mounts, covered only by blast shields and spread evenly around the hull. Thee ships were initially ordered: HNLMS Java Laid down: May 31st, 1916 Launched: August 6th, 1921 Commissioned: May 1st, 1925 HNLMS Sumatra Laid down: July 15th, 1916 Launched: December 29th, 1920 Commissioned: May 26th, 1926 HNLMS Celebes Construction approved at June 14th, 1917 with 30 tonnes of material prepared, but was cencelled in 1919. No keel was ever laid down. Note that there was quite some time between the keel being laid and when they were commissioned. No specific reason has been given for this, but it's easy to assume that WW1 had a major influence and the following pacifism movement didn't help a whole lot either. However, this did result in the class being severely outdated before they were even launched but no attempt at a redesign was made. But ships were given a major refit during the thirties: the 4 75mm secondary guns were removed and a AA suite consisting of 4x2 40mm Bofors on Hazemeyer mounts and 8 Browning .50cal machineguns were added in their place. Also the firecontrol suite was replaced by a new Hazemeyer model. However,the ships still had serious flaws: they were lightly armored (even for a light cruiser), the layout of the main battery was outdated, with only 7 guns available per broadside (out of 10) and the AA guns were all located near the stern of the ship, creating a big blind spot as the foreward superstructure was in the way. However, the Dutch Navy had to make due with them. Fate: HNLMS Java was located at the Dutch Indies when war broke out with Japan. After a number of patrols and escort missions she became part of the ABDA (American, British, Dutch, Australian) fleet and took part in the battle of the Java sea. There she was hit in the aft magazine by a long lance torpedo launched by the Japanese heavy cruiser Nachi, causing the magazine to explode and the stern to break off the ship. With electricity failing no lifeboats could be lowered leaving the crew with just their lifejackets and all possible floating objects they could find. Java sunk within 15 minutes taking 512 crewmembers (including her captain: Captain van Straelen) out of 526 down with her. Her wreck was discovered at December 1st 2002 at a depth of 69 meters and has been marked as a wargrave. HNLMS Sumatra was docked in Vlissingen (Flushing) the Netherlands when war broke out with Germany. When the war was deemed lost, she managed to escape to Great Britain and was used a month later to transport the Dutch royal family to Canada. However, from the moment of her commissioning Sumatra had troubles with her machinery and was therefore deemded unfit for combat duty. In an effort to get her combar ready again she was sent to Soerabaja in the Dutch Indies for a major overhaul, even though it was dubious if she would ever be truely combat ready. However, shortly after her arrival war broke out with Japan and she was sent back to Great Britain, manned by a skeleton crew. She arrived at Portsmouth at October 31st 1942 and was laid up a few days later. Her guns only saw action indirectly, as they were removed from the Sumatra to be used as spared for the "Terrible Twins", the sloops HNLMS Flores and Soemba. The hull of Sumatra was used as a blockship during the Normandy campaign and was scrapped in 1951. Stats: General Dispacement: 6670 tons standard / 8078 tons full load Crew: 526 (35 officers, 54 petty officers, 437 men) Dimensions: 155.3x16x6.22 meters Main battery: 10 x 150 mm Bofors No. 6 (10 x 1) Secondary battery: 4 x 75 mm L/55 semi-automatic No.4 (removed during refit) AA battery: 8 x 40 mm Bofors No. 3 (4 x 2) and 8 x .50 Browning MG FCS: Hazemeyer ASW: 10-12 depthcharges Radar: none Other: 2 Fokker C-11W aircraft with crane Armor Belt: 75mm Deck: 25mm horizontal, 50mm (inclined, connecting deck with belt) Conning tower: 125mm Shields: 100mm Propulsion Boilers: 8 Schultz-Thornycroft Machinery: 3 Parsons turbines (Java)/3 Zoëlly turbines (Sumatra, later replaced by Parsons) Performance: 73.000 shp (Java)/82.000 shp (Sumatra) Shafts: 3 Bunkerage: 1126 tons (normal)/1176 tons (max) Range: 5000 miles @ 12 knots (design)/4340 miles @ 10/11 knots (actual) Max speed: 31 knots

Cobra6, on 04 June 2013 - 03:10 PM, said: At the start of the war we had 1 tank, an old Renault FT17 :teethhappy: But indeed we had, and still have, quite a lot of interest overseas. Cobra 6 Well, actually the army and airforce were something that were deemed less important than the navy, due to the strickt neutrality of the Netherlands. They did not expect to be attacked. Only when Germany (a trusted and longtime trading partner) started to seriously re-arm itself did the Army place an order for a number of British tanks...at which time it was already too late. Anyway, the Navy was a lot better off, they actually ordered a number of Battlecruisers in Germany (as the Netherlands lacked the knowhow and proper shipyards). It was called Project 1047, a design loosely based on the German Scharnhorst class, but better. (less armor but more speed, much better AA suite, dual purpose seconday battery, more reliable engines, improved FCS etc) Orders for these ships were placed in 1940 with an estimated delivery year of 1945...which was once again a tiny bit too late. :sceptic: (and as they were inteded for the Dutch Indies, it's questionable if they would have had much impact on the massive Japanese navy)

Thanks guys! :honoring:

The Tromp class Even though the Dutch navy had finally succeeded in getting it's third cruiser with the De Ruyter, it still wanted more big ships. But with the Dutch population not willing to spend money on big warmachines, the Dutch navy started with playing tricks with the ship classifications: two ships of the Tromp class were ordered, but even though they were just slightly smaller than the Java class and carried bigger guns than the De Ruyter, they were called flottilla leaders. No people, these are just very large destroyers. No cruisers to be found here! This creativity with ship classifications is still being practiced today, with the new De Zeven Provinciën class ships being called frigates, while the rest of the world calls them destroyers. Anyway, back to the Tromp! In 1935 two "flotilla leaders" were ordered: Tromp and Jacob van Heemskerck. HNLMS Tromp Ordered: 1935 Laid down: January 17th, 1936 Launched: May 24tg, 1937 Commissioned: August 18th, 1938 HNLMS Jacob van Heemskerck Ordered: 1935 Laid down: October 31st, 1938 Launched: September 16th, 1939 Commissioned: May 10, 1940 (prematurely due to German invasion, trials were scheduled for June 1940), February 11, 1941 (after refitting in UK) Fate: HNLMS Tromp Tromp was also on duty in the Dutch Indies when war broke out. While the war with the Japanese had not broken out, Tromp was mostly on patrol duty searching for hostile merchant shipping. She also took part in the search for the German raider Komoran, after it's battle with HMAS Sydney, and the then still missing Sydney. All she finds is a carley raft (an form of liferaft) of the Sydney, but no survivors. When war with Japan finally breaks out, the Tromp is sent on multiple convoy escort missions together with the De Ruyter and the destroyers Banckert and Piet Hein. Tromp stays with the De Ruyter and the rest of the ABDA fleet through the battle of Bandung Straight while surviving multiple air attacks in the mean time. During the battle of Bandung Straight she was hit 11 times by Japanese destroyers but she manages to sail back to Soerabaja to be patched up, even though she lost 2 officers and 8 ratings, with another 30 wounded. While in Soerabaja, the damage appears to be more extensive than previously thought and the decision is made to send her to safety in Fremantle, Australia for extensive repairs. This most likely saved her, as pretty all other Dutch cruisers were sunk during the battle of Java Sea. While in Fremantle she joins up with the survivors of the Dutch fleet stationed in the Dutch Indies (a few destroyers and some transports and merchants) and she joins various USN and RN taskforces completing multiple escort and patrol missions. She alse receives one overhaul, where her Dutch torpedo tubes are replaced by British ones, so she can use the readily available British Mark IX torpedoes. At september 16th, 1945 HNLMS Tromp is the first Dutch ship to dock at the Dutch Indies since they were invaded by the Japanese. She remains in service until 1951, when she is placed in the reserve fleet. She then serves as a training vessel and ultimately as an accomodation ship. She is scrapped in 1969. HNLMS Jacob van Heemskerck From the start of her life the JvH is in the middle of the action. While she is fitted out in the docks of Amsterdam, the Germans invade the Netherlands. While still incomplete and without weapons, the propulsion system is installed and tested so in one day as much equipment as possible is stowed onto the JvH (including 6 20mm machineguns for "protection") and with a skeleton crew, she is prematurely commissioned and sent to Great Brittain. During this voyage she was almost attacked by two British vessels, as they did not recognize her identity. In the end they let her through and on May 13th she reaches Portsmouth. While still incomplete and woefully underarmed (she still only had the 20mm guns with just 20 rounds per gun) and still lacking FCS and a gyrocompass, she is sent along with the HNLMS Sumatra to transport the Dutch Royal familty to Canada. Even though she only had to act as a backup, in reality she wouldn't be able to do a whole lot if they encountered German forces. However, she makes it to Canada in one piece (even though she had an onboard fire, making her unable to keep up with the Sumatra) and after she receives a gyro compass in Halifax, she steams back to Great Britain to be fitted out. The decision is made to make an AA cruiser out of her. Due to the original weapons intended now being unavailable and British FCS systems being incompatible with the Dutch cruiser, she receives a unique system tailor made for her. Se also gets 5 double 4" Mk 16 guns instead of the 5.9 inch Bofors and the torpedo mounts. She also gets to keep the 20mm guns, but her AA suite is enhanced with a quad 40mm Vickers Mk8 gun. After being commissioned, she is quickly put into service as an escort vessel for single ships. Within a year she escorts 200 ships with multiple air attacks taking place, but the German planes break off every time dure to the accurate AA fire the JvH puts up. Only in December 1941 a lone He 115 seaplane manages to get through the AA fire (after three attempts) and manages to damage a tanker. In 1942 she is sent to the Dutch Indies, fully loaded with extra 4.7" rounds for the destroyers in the ABDA, but when she is nearly there, she receives word of the disaster at the Java sea. She turns around and heads for Colombo, where she arrives at March 6th, with only 3% fuel left in her bunkers. She joins the British forces of Force A (and later Force B) and continues to provide AA cover during various missions. During 1944 and 1945 she is transferred to Gibraltar for convoy/fleet escort duty, as the Luftwaffe is still a potent threat to the ships in the Med. She finally is sent to Great Brittain for a long overdue refit and overhaul, which is completed at July 21st, 1945. With the war over, she makes the trip back to Amsterdam, becoming the first Dutch warship to enter a Dutch port since the war broke out. After the war she makes a few trips to Belgium and the Dutch Indies, after which she is used as a training ship and later as an accomodation ship. She is sold for scrap on june 23rd, 1970. Stats: General Displacement: 3450 tons standard Crew: Tromp - 295 (later 380) / JvH - 420 Dimensions: 131.95x12.43x4.32 meters Main battery: Tromp - 6 x 149 mm Bofors No. 11 (3x2) / JvH - 10 x 10,2 cm Mk 16 (5 x 2) AA battery: Tromp - 8x 40mm Bofors, 4x .50cal Vickers, 4x75mm (type unknown), 6x 20mm Oerlikon JvH - 8x40mm Bofors, 6x 20mm Hispano Suiza Torpedoes: 6x 533mm (2x3), later replaced by British Mk.9 (Tromp only) Radar: Tromp - various British types throughout the war / JvH - Types 285 (AA control), 272 (Surface), 282 (for Bofors AA) Armor Turrets: 25-12mm Belt: 15mm Bulkheads: 20-30mm Main deck: 25mm Lower deck: 15-25mm Ammonution lifts: 15-25mm Propulsion Boilers: 4 Yarrow, 3 Drum Machinery: 2 Parsons geared steam turbines Performance: 56.000 shp Max speed: 32.5 knots Bunkerage 860t Shafts: 2 Source used for all three classes: Netherlandsnavy.nl and a little bit of wikipedia.

HNLMS De Ruyter With the cancellation of the Celebes of the Java class (which was to be a command ship) the Royal Netherlands Navy still wanted a third cruiser, as it felt the need to have at least two cruisers operational when one was in drydock. However, at the moment that the order was placed the world was in a deep economic recession. Because of this, and the large pacifist movement in the Netherlands at the time, there was a lot of protest against such a big, expensive ship. The idea was to take the design of the Java class and improve upon it. They took away the outdated main battery and replaced it with 7 15cm guns in 4 turrets (3x2, 1x1), giving her more firepower in terms of broadside weight. However, it was still a rather weak battery when compared to the British Leander class CL and other CL's of other navies. Armor was even worse in thickness than that on the Java's in an effort to save money: deck and superstructure armor was 33mm thick and her belt was 51mm at its thickest. However, it's not all bad: the Hazemeyer firecontrol system for her main guns and AA (two seperate systems) were considered to be among the best in the world, making her guns quite accurate and with 10 40mm Bofors and 8 .50cal Brownings she had one of the heaviest AA and most advanced suites on a CL in the world. (the famous dual 40mm Bofors AA guns used by the USN and RN are actually improved copies of the Dutch Hazemeyer system) HNLMS De Ruyter Ordered: August 1st, 1932 Laid down: September 16th, 1933 Launched: May 11th, 1935 Commissioned: October 3rd, 1936 Fate: Like HNLMS Java, De Ruyter was stationed at the Dutch Indies when war broke out with the Japanese. As the flagship of Admiral Karel Doorman (commanding officer of the ABDA fleet) and during the opening staged of the war she (and the other ABDA ships in the fleet) were under numerous Japanese air attacks. She fought in the battle of Bandung Strait, a battle against 4 Japanese detroyers and 2 troop transports. But like HNLMS Java, she finally met her end at the battle of the Java sea. De Ruyter was hit on the starboard side by one or two long lance torpedoes at 23:30, starting a fire at the AA deck, causing the stored AA ammo to explode. A fuel tank was also ruptured, causing a massive fuel leak, which quickly caught fire. Just like with the Java, the dynamo room was destroyed, because of which only one lifeboat could be lowered. De Ruyter went down at 02:30 hours, taking 345 men out of a crew of 437 down with her. Like the Java, her wreck was discovered at December 1st, 2002 and is an official wargrave. Stats: General Dispacement: 6442 tons standard / 7822 tons full load Crew: 437 Dimension: 170.92x15.70x5 meters Main battery: 7 x 150 mm Bofors No. 9 and 10 AA batter: 10 x 40 mm Bofors L/60 No.3, 8 x .50cal Browning MG FCS: For main battery and AA one Hazemeyer type each. Aicraft: 2 Fokker C 11 W floatplanes with a Heinkel K 8 catapult Armor Deck: 33mm Turrets: 33mm sides, 100mm front Belt: 30-51mm Tower: 33mm Bulkheads:"33mm Propulsion Boilers: 6 Yarrow Machinery: 3 Parsons geared steam turbines Performance: 66000 SHP (75000 SHP for short periods of time) Max speed: 32 knots Cruising speed: 17 knots Bunkerage: 1300t oil Range: 6800 nautical miles @ 12 knots Shafts: 2

Yeah, also most modern torps against surface vessels don't work by doing a lot of damage to the hull, but by creating a vacuum under the ship, so it breaks in half under it's own weight. (even though this was pioneered by -i believe- the Germans during WW2 with their magnetic proximity torpedoes)

Introducing: the De Zeven Provinciën class air defence and command frigate. De Zeven...what??? De Zeven Provinciën (english: the seven provinces) is a name harking back to the golden age of what is now The Netherlands. People who have played Empire: Total War might know it as The United Provinces. A time in which not the British, but the Dutch ruled the waves with heavily armed merchantmen and were to be found everywhere where profit was to be made. De Zeven Provinciën was also the name of the flagship of famous Dutch admiral Michiel de Ruyter, with which he kicked English behind in the second Anglo-Dutch war (there were five of them in fact). The name has since been used for various ships of the line, as well as the fine class of post-ww2 light cruisers, which can be found here. The current class of frigates The current class of De Zeven Provinciën frigates are highly advanced ships, specialized in anti-air warfare. Within the Royal Netherlands Navy (or RNN) they are also known as LCF's (Luchtverdedigings- en commandofregat or Air defense and command frigate). For this role they are equipped with SMART-L and APAR radars capable of detecting and tracking targets from over 400km away. Currently these frigates are the only European NATO ships capable of tracking ballistic missiles. To better fulfill this role, the SMART-L radars are being upgraded to the Mk. 2 version, which is capable of detecting and tracking ballistic missiles at a range of 2000km. These upgrades are to be finished in 2017. The weapon loadout of these ships consist of: Guns: 1 x Oto Melara 127 mm/54 dual-purpose gun 2-4 x Browning M2 12.7mm machine guns 4-6 x FN MAG 7.62mm machine guns 1-2 x Goalkeeper CIWS Missiles: 40-cell Mk.41 vertical launch system 32 x SM-2 IIIA surface-to-air missiles 32 x Evolved Sea Sparrow Missile (quadpacked) 8 x Harpoon anti-ship missiles 2 x twin MK32 Mod 9 torpedo launchers with Raytheon MK46 Mod 5 torpedoes Helicopters 1 x NH-90 helicopter The ships were also planned to be equipped with Tomahawk cruise missiles, but plans for this were shelved. Ships in class Four ships have been built, the first is named after the class, the others are named after Dutch admirals. F802 De Zeven Provinciën F803 Tromp F804 De Ruyter F805 Evertsen Wait...is this a frigate?? In the RNN these ships are indeed classed as frigates, however, NATO classes them as destroyers. The RNN does not deny that these ships are indeed a bit big for a frigate, but as the general public in The Netherlands seems to be allergic to anything that sounds aggressive, they are called frigates. How times have changed in the last few hunderd years... And now...PICTURES! And the original ship of the line

No, De Zeven Provinciën isn't part of the MEKO family. However, the DZP, Sachsen and the Spanish Álvaro de Bazán were part of the trilateral frigate agreement between The Netherlands, Germany and Spain. And while the Sachsen is part of the MEKO family and the DZP is not, they are built around roughly the same specifications: an anti-air warfare frigate with the SMART-L and APAR sensor systems and SM-2 and Sea Sparrow missile systems. As far as i know the Dutch and German navies worked together on quite some parts of the ship, while the Spanish frigate is more aimed at the American AEGIS system.