CommissionerJan

Even with 20 km range, thanks to the long spotting ranges and all the planes, long-range torps would mainly be a way to force enemies into a turn.

How to fix cruisers: Do what Exocet proposes, and give the IJN cruisers Type 93s. Then start working from there to see if they become relevant compared to BBs, especially after US BBs with better A are added.

The game has no underwaer trajectory for shells. Shell hits water = it disappears. Underwater AP hits is on the 'maybe one day' feature list.

Also noticed this. It appears to happen almost every time you ctrl-click on a name in the playerspanel to switch your camera to that player. What generally works is entering the menu (Esc) and leaving the menu again.

You detect torps at 2.7 km, torps arm after 300 meters. I am not sure at what range airplanes see torps.

Historic stats should not ever be used as a basis for balancing, only as a baseline. it can literally not end well if it is attempted in a non-simualtion game. Takao is just used as t8 cruisers there because it was used at that Tier in an earlier test version. It has a heavier torpedo armament than both the Mogami and Myoko, so if WG ever decide to make the torps relevant again, that would place it logically above the other two classes.

If you're getting torpedoed by cruisers, you might want to check your situational awareness. And if you're getting torpedoed by DDs on the open ocean, you could just avoid going in a straight line for more than a minute.

So people are complaining even though the actual damage per second valus remained the same? Placebo buffs actually work!

How can it be sued offensively? The smoke appears behind the DD, if it is moving towards the target, it will remain visible and die.

The obvious move right now would be to move Aoba to t5, Myoko to t6, keep Mogami at t7 and put Takao back in at tier 8. There is still some hope that the tree will not remain unsuable.

Torps do spread and 'wander' to one side or the other. Play some DDs, and you'll see it.

Suggestions: Put it in your port ans wait until it gets buffed and it stops being useless Put it in your port and hope they turn it into a Takao one day, which is less useless than the Myoko Get all turret turn rate upgrades and skills and try to use your relatively fast-firing guns Play very, very carefully while doing this. Be aware that any BB you see can kill you in two salvoes, and never try to actively use your torps for anything, they're an utter waste of time. You're probably better off with 1. or 2. and grinding up US CAs.

The solution might be a change to the torpedo detection, as you say, and a return to the detection mechanics we had last patch. If DDs were able to use their guns without becoming visible, they could at least reset a cap without beign dead twenty seconds later. And if torp detection was changed so that the detection range with the Commander Skill was around 2.5 km ,and the normal detection range around 1.9 - 2 km, torps as a whole would eb a good bit more dangerous. When low-tier torps would at the same time get a longer reload to stop the dreaded lowtier torpspam, we might end up in a situation where tier 2 - 5 DDs become less overpowered, and DDs at higher tiers become useful.

Point in case, that one squadron removed you from active play for . . .how many minutes? Two? Three? He forced you to do nothing but react to a free action on his part. He removed your ability to influence the battle. But why am I even posting, people here want World of Carriers instead of balance.

If you are only worried about the Essex at Tier 10: Wait. Please, just wait. You know it is not going to stay there, you know it will be at tier 9 when the Midway is patched in. Any and all buffs now will only come back to bite us in the [edited]when they move the Essex to Tier 9. First, concrntrate on the negative changes between the weekend beta/alpha version and the closed beta version. Those changes: made BBs into RNG slot machines turned IJN DDs into simulators for 2:40 of boredom, your guns are useless and your torps take ages to reload and then miss anyway because everyone can see torps from 2.7km away made all US DDs into ships that can only kill IJN DDs, or suicide-dive into sombody's secondary battery to torp him to death because shooting your main guns makes you visible to everyone made all the torps on IJN CAs useless (10 km range, everyone sees you long before you even launch and then just turns away), turned all the CAs into fragile XP pinatas for BBs And that is just off the top of my head. In short, pretty much everything that was good, that let all the trees in the game have a a viable, useful and fun tier 10 ship, is gone. This trend needs to stop, right now. It needs to be turned around, because a game that is fun is what we need. Not a game that is not fun, and on top of that, not balanced.

You asked for fightes to deal damage to ships with rocket attacks, so that carriers would finally have to stop worrying about aiming when attempting to kill DDs and CAs. You did not say that in so many words. but this is what you were asking for, wether you thought of it as that or not. So, yeah, sorry for not wanting to see CAs and DDs become even more useless. I fully agree that changes to certain planes might be needed. Fighter-bombers would be a cool thing, in principle, as some sort of middle ground between dive-bombers and fighters. But please, let's first clean up the problem that two classes and three and half trees are useless from roughly t5 and up. If you cannot stand statements of facts and honest, open discourse, I am sorry for hurting your feelings. That does not change what will happen if the CVs get buffed as the people in this thread demand. You can either decide to speak out against imbalances as they are being discussed and demanded, or wait until they go live and the forums are full of 'XYZ is OP, pls nerf' for weeks. Honestly, guys. I do not want to nerf carriers, I do not want carriers to be weak. But as it is, carriers can kill most BBs at will (with a properly done manual drop, which is not easy and takes skill) in two or so strikes. They can neutralize DDs by simply placing a squadron of airplanes near them, which forces the DD to use smoke, and run away. This is a free action, this does not cost the CV anything, and it removes the DD from the game for several minutes, or it just causes the DD to die if anyone is close enough to shoot it when it gets seen. CAs can annoy planes right now, we've discussed this to death above. But beyond that, all the CAs from t7 up are fragile to the point of uselessness and there is nearly no point to even playing them above t6 or 7 at this time, one is simply better off playing BB. Carriers are extremely potent, and this will only be more pronounced once organized play becomes a thing. It is in the nature of the carrier to be this versatile and powerful, which is why history has proven the carrier to be THE best possible warship for fleet engagements on the open ocean. But: This game needs to be fun for everyone. And with more powerful carriers, the game will only be fun for those carriers, while everyone else can play target for five minutes before deciding to say '[edited]tthis, I'll rather go and play a round of tetris' So, guys, please. Let's try to first make all classes (and hopelfully even all trees) viable before we unbalance everything even further. I'm not trying to tell you 'you can't have fun becasue I hate your fun'. I'm trying to tell you 'with those changes to carriers, the game will not succeed and then noone will have fun'

Don't you think that CVs being threatened at under 14 km is a fair trade for everyone else being defenseless at over 14 km? Especially when the carrier can move as fast as any CA that might try to follow them, and keep the range open for minutes? Do you think getting killed by bombers for three tiers before any ship gets any appreciable amount of AA is fun? Do you think DDs being perma-spotted by some fighters that are parked on top of them are having fun? Do you think BBs losing half their hitpoints from a competent torpedo bomber attack three minutes into the game are having fun?

Good idea in priciple, any hit should reset the timer for squadrons refueling and rearming at the moment.

[edited]

Carriers already are super-ships. They completely, totally and utterly dominate if the player uses the planes intelligently and actively. I've seen it done by Rangers and Lexingtons, and while I have not yet seen an Essex do it because I simply have no wish to wait five minutes for an alpha-test-like 3-vs-4 match at t8, 9 or 10 I have absoluetly no doubt that the Essex can do the same. All the examples I cited above, fightes placed above destroyers to completely neutralize them, killing lone ships (wether Nagato, Fuso or Amagi) with impunity, leading DDs or CAs on minute-long chases are just things I have seen carriers do. And here you are, demanding nerfs to CAs so you can click things out of the game because you feel it is your sole job to kill four or five enemy players per battle, with impunity, without even losing planes? Do you really just want to turn this into World of Carriers? Is this some drive to put 'historicity' into this game? if so, forget it. Drop it, now. It is extremely damaging to the game to attempt this, becasue it wiould destroy game balance. Regarding reasons for crusiers to exist. . .you actually are trolling again, right? Why would anyone bring CAs when they could bring BBs instead? CAs gat twoshot by BBs, cannot repair themselves, have useless scout planes, and the IJN CAs lost their torp range, turning their torps into some joke button you can either push or just not bother with, because you can only ever kill a player that is so utterly distracted by something with those torps that they might as well not exist. I will grant you that Cleveland, Mogami and Des Moines can actually be dangerous opponents, and can put a lot of pressure on BBs. . .as long as those BBs, for some arcane reason, do not shoot at those cruisers. But why would any sane BB player not take the time to remove this cruiser in two or three salvoes? That's 40k easy damage, without armor, and (almost) guaranteed citpens. Well, assuming the RNG is with him, and the shells do not just scatter everywhere. but as a whole, CAs above tier 6 are just not very good. In fact they are laughably weak at tier 8, there is literally no point to ever unlocking a Senjo, and considering the ships you're forced to grind through to get a Des Moines, Ibuki or Baltimore, I seriously doubt we'll be seeing many of those, either. Seriously. If such changes as you demand appear in the game, it will be extremely damaging. It will turn into a monotone mess where only two classes are even close to viable: BB and CV. With one being so overwhelmingly more useful than the other, like you want it to be the case, BBs will just die out because noone want to play target for the almighty CVs. Just like noone wants to play CA to be a target for the BBs right now (which is apparently the job of CAs from roughly tier 7 and up at this time) Just like noone likes being utterly useless in general, which is what IJN DDs are from tier 7 and up are. USN DDs quite frankly have no job at all, unless you call suicide runs into secondary batteries and hoping for some defenseless IJN DD to come along a role. I would consider it a smart step to clear up this mess and restore the game to a state (which we we used to have) where all trees and classes were viable, before we risk unbalancing things even further. But hey, maybe I'm wrong, CVs need a buff (how about we get those 8k AP bombs back), CA barrage needs a nerf so the DBs can drop the bombs in peacce. Maybe make the citadel on all CAs a bit bigger, to make sure those AP bombs actually deal full damage when teh CV gets around to killing the CAs once all BBs are dead. And while we're at it, nerf torpedoes some more to make sure all DDs and IJN CAs just stop playing entirely.

You don't see how demanding that your planes which already completely counter DDs just by being there, thus effectively removing that DD from play completely, while your other squadrons can kill other players, lose their one weakness (the CA barrage, which only stops them from killing enemies for a few seconds) might look like trolling? OK, yeah. You actually are trolling. If you complain about low hitpoints of carriers now, this discussion is over, you just want CVs to be OP and kill everything on top of being fast, having BB-level hitpoints. EVERYTHING gets potentiailly two-shot by a Yamato. Actually all CAs and DDs are oneshots for all BBs, no matter which tier. Honestly, if you want to pretend you're not trolling you're doing a bad job. You just want your precious CVs to be able to click on everything while driving around the map, and screw the other classes, the game balance and the fun for everyone but you. Without barrage, I want the CAs to kill planes. With barrage, I want the CAs to kill planes and the planes to be disorganized. It should not ever be possible for the CVs to just go 'lol let's kill those guys' without even caring about losses to their air group. Attacking such a formation should be a decision like all other palyers are forced to make: Do I go in there and risk my continued participation in this battle? And this, for a CV, means losses to the air group. This is already far less dangerous, from a credit loss perspective, than the decision for other players, who risk to lose hitpoints and can earn a huge repair bill. So it takes TWO enemy players several minutes and a cooldown that can ony be used a limited number of times per battle to counter something you do with ONE of your fighter squadrons, at will and as often as you want. It removes those two enemy players from normal play and forces them to react to your single squadron, but that's OK and you should get some more buffs becasue you are the allmighty carrier and they are just lowly targets for you to click on? Are you delusional? Do you actively want to send this game to an utter failure of a laucnh, with no balance, no fun for anyone but the CVs, and ultimately a deserted state like WoWP? Because I can tell you that the current state of the game already turns people away. With BBs relying on RNG, CAs and DDs being borderline useless (this is in part due to the torpedo changes) we have enough problems that need addressing before we start buffind CVs so that they can kill everything. Part of that is the stupid dominiation and capture mode, which allows DDs to just drive into the cap and essentially win the game in a neverending smokescreen, which I wholeheartedly agree is completely stupid and needs to change. But this is a gamemode problem, not a DD problem. I do not think this discussion will get us anywhere. You want your overpowered carriers, for the sake of. . .actually, I have no clue why you want them. If this is done, it will remove the last reason for CAs to even exist, DDs will remain useless and visible and get onehsot whenever somebody gets around to killing them, and BBs will only float about the map to get clicked out of the game by the CVs.

I again note that you refuse to answer my points about roughly half of your extreme buff-carriers-so-they-can-kill-everything-with-three-clicks demands, but I already get what you want by now anywy, and I guess everyone else who reads this understands it perfectly as well. And honestly, what you say above is just trolling. A DD pops smoke and is invisible? Are you just trying to troll people who only ever play t3 battles into supporting you here? If a DD moves forward, the smoke will not even make him invisible, and the very position of the smoke scren is like a big sign with DD here please come and kill me written on it. If the DD stops inside the smoke. . .well, then he is obviously not getting into attack position, not spotting anything outside the smoke and no danger to anyone. He is not taking part in teh battle, he is completely neutralized by one plane circling above him. One CV is gamebreaking for one, two or maybe even four DDs, but hey, that's fine; CVs should crap all over everyone else, accoring to you. Seriously, stop trolling please. This is supposed to be a beta test to help the devs balance the game, and not some sort of post-release pls-buff-my-favorite-class thread from the WoT forums. I don't want to neutralize CVs. I want to stop CVs from destroying everything with impunity. Even panicked planes can deal damage, just not as well. I want balance, and a role for every class and nation in the game. This proposl would further reduce the viability of the CAs and DDs in order to allow CVs to deal more damage to the BBs. Good for the CVs, maybe, but very, very bad for the game as a whole. And as you yourself pointed out, all the barrage does is delay the CV damage by a few seconds. If three cruisers are in one close formation, that should allow thr CV to attack some of the other nine players on the battlefield, which will probably NOT be in close formation with those three cruisers. And please, stop comparing CVs to arty. It doesn't work, and if you don't believe that I know what I'm talking about, go and look at my WoT profile and my most played t10 vehicle. CVs are way more than fire support. They are scouts, capture points, they are fast and have a lot of hitpoints, and I can only say once more than NOTHING can neutralize (i.e., shoot down) your 90 planes. The barrage just delays you damage. If anything, the barrage should actually kill planes far more rapidly in order to be a real threat to carriers and their ability to remove players from the game. CAs and their barrage should be an actual hard counter to planes, instead of a slight delay and nuisance. Good point, ships at t3 - t6 have very little or no AA, they desperately need buffs to avoid being simply removed from the game by CVs. A short-term solution would be a massive increase of the short range AA power on the cruisers at those tiers, so that they actually shoot down planes rapidly enough to stop CVs from sending strike after strike.

First, I note that you excluded my second team setup, which would be carrier heavy, probably to make your position appear less extreme and one-sided. You also ignore that your demand would lead to carriers trumping everything on the field. BB, CA, DD, all would be reduced to things for the CV players to destroy at will. This is a dangerous and very, very damaging to the game in the long run, and it is about as far from anything I would ever call balance as you can get. It would be a return to Alpha days which are still under NDA, and I remind you that people simply left the queue back then when they saw a Lexington or Essex in there. Also note that panicked planes do not disappear, do not lose their ability to drop torps and bombs, and can just come back later. They just lose accuracy, and when the enemy is in a relatively tight formation, those torps can still hit something, they are not wasted. Nerfing CAs into even further uselessness might help carriers deal more damage, but then, dealing damage is not everything. Carriers are the best scouts, have the same hitpoints as carriers, move as ast as cruisers. . .in short, carriers are many things already, I think making them the best damage dealers on top of all this would be a grave mistake and (I repeat myself here, to get the point across) extremely damaging to the game. CVs are not arty from WoT. Nobody forces the CV to sit on the blue line in A0. In this situation, the team with the CVs would win, six or seven out of ten. Why? Because the torpedo bombers force people to maneuver when they want to shoot. Because the dive bombers set people on fire after they had to use their repair team to stop the flooding or repair a turret. Because the CVs use their fighters to scout the enemy, and allow their own team to set up a trap. Or the CVs just plain went around the rear and capped the enemy base. Or maybe because the CVs were actually in gun range, offering their hitpoints and some enemies made the mistake of wasting salvoes on them. Carriers are not arty from WoT. They are, in a very distant, remote way, like arty in WoT because they attack indirectly from some sort of 3rd-person-top-down-view. And that's it. They are WAY more useful than arty, and in many more and different ways than just dealing damage to the enemy. And that means that you cannot reduce them to just that, and demand that they just click on one enemy every five minutes to remove him from the game. This (potentail, assuming the enemy reamin in a perfect formation all the time, and never splits up) loss of damage is compensated several times over in utility that goes fa beyond the direct combat potential of BBs or CAs. I also point out that you ignored those abilities when I brought them up earlier, most notably the ability to hard-counter DDs by simply putting a fighter squadron over them. This, in itself, is another huge balancing problem that doesn't even touch the carrier's damage potential; it essentially means you demand the ability to remove one enemy from the game every few minutes on top of teh ability of effectively removing two other players from the game by keeing them visible. I hope it becomes clear now how extreme your demands are, and how they would further shift the game away from a state of balance.

The Essex' will actually reach the defenders' cap long before the defenders can get anywhere close to the Essex' cap. The carriers are faster then the BBs, and the BBs will have to maneuver when they come under attack, and the CVs can use their fighters to scout a safe route to the enemy cap. In any conceivable scenario the carriers will either win by capping, or draw while sinking several of the defenders. This implies a heavy balancing problem right now, and nerfing CAs would only make it worse. Of course, such a battle does not happen in a void, there are other ships around. But it does illustrate the point. A DD has a few knots advantage over the CV, so simply turning away and running will force the DD into a stern chase that can last minutes, (and nobody forces the CV to sit stopped behind an island or iceberg at his spawn, far away from his team and with no support, so it is very unlikel that the DD will have those minutes to get into attack position). DDs, especially at high tiers, are barely a threat to anything. Like I pointed out above, just seeing the DD with planes renders it defenseless, and removes its torpedoes as a threat: A torpedo that is detected at launch is useless. See above. Any conceivable scenario results in a capture win (domination mode, or if the defenders leave their own cap cricle) or a draw. A decidely advantageous istuation for the CVs. You apparently demand them to be able to sink all opposition on top of that, which is something I view as extremely unbalanced and absolutely damaging to the game. I have not called any carrier player a clicker. I merely pointed out that all those strikes are happening at no risk and no repair cost to the carrier, while you demand for those carriers to remove one target per strike from the game, removing that player from the battle, and causing him or her a loss of credits, fun and will to play if this happens every third game. Again, a situation which I view as not balanced, and damaging to the game. You honestly demand teh ability for carriers to just remove one enemy player per air strike from the game? Every four or five minutes? At no risk to their own hitpoints i.e., credit gain and ability to stay in teh battle? Do you honestly think this is a good idea? Everyone else, be it a BB or CA or DD, risk his or her own hitpoints when engaging the enemy. This risk takes differnt forms, BBs rely on armor and hitpoints (and repair), DDs rely on speed and invisibility, and, well, actually, CAs just get crap on right now, but that is beside the point here. CVs are in the unique position of only risking thier planes. When those planes all get shot down, they are in trouble. . .but as you stated above, it is essentially impossible for an Essex to even get all those planes shot down in one battle: 90 planes are more than two and half full strikes, even if 100% of this strike were to get shot down by something. Which would most certainly not happen in our little scenario above, and even if it would the game would end in a timeout/draw before all planes could die! Honestly, I cannot tell you what a CW team might look like. We do not know if there will be any restrictions on numbers and setup. We know nothing. Right now I can imagine clan battles to be mainly BBs , maybe with a few US CAs mixed in, and a few carriers to do the scouting and air cover. Only a very inconsiderate commander would bring IJN CAs or DDs. An alternative would be only CVs and US CAs. I believe it is too early to think about CWs, apart from one central point: The viability of the t10 ships. We do not need more imbalance. We need the viability of the IJN CAs and DDs in general back, because as it stands right now, noone is going to play them because they are useless. Carriers can do a lot of things. They can pick off lone targets with impunity. They can scout, they can completely counter DDs by just sticking a plane over them, they can move as fast as CAs. I realize that the barrage ability feels very frustrating, because it stops you from dealing a lot of damage easily. But that ability is the only thing that stops you from just removing a player from the battle with impunity. In conclusion, it actually does sound like you want to click on things to delete them from the battle. I want game balance and all t10s to be viable with a potential role in CWs, which means no one class must ever be allowed to win per default as you think it should.