Vaderan

You might have a point here, if we dare to take a closer look: basically, BBs are a "punishable" as any other class. However, they have a big advantage above all other classes, which is even more increased by their biggest weakness. Their advantage is their superior range. Their weakness is their ineffectiveness vs. BB counterparts: their accuracy. While RNG makes them strong vs. soft targets (since RNG will make them score some citadell or softspot anyway), hard targets like BBs cannot be hit with the necessary accuracy to score hits at the regions where you can penetrate and do severe damage. Where all classes can reliably take on their counterparts (DDs vs. DDs, CVs vs CVs, cruisers vs. cruisers), BBs only can do so, if RNG is on their side even more than it is necessary to have RNG vs. soft targets. This removes skilled BB captains as viable "punishment" against bad BB players, where a skilled DD, CV or cruiser player will always be a reliable punishment for a bad player of it´s class. If BBs would be more skill-depending, good BB players would be much more in a position to punish bad BB players, while bad BB players would be less of an annoyance for all (and decrease in numbers!). In my opinion, the skill demands in this game should be cruisers, DDs, BBs, CVs, with cruisers being the bread and butter ships for any fleet. I wonder if a respawn system for cruisers would be something worth to try out. Like one respawn per match... There are "thunderous" games out there, where respawn works out...

And here we come to the core point again: demanding BB nerf/BB player punishment, because BBs are the problem and the reason for the problems of other classes. I won´t even waste a single minute to reason, why this is just wrong. Instead: nerfs and punishments haven´t ever lead to patato player behaviour. It just made the dedicated players think about new ways of playstyle, made the average players copy those playstyles more or less successfully, and left the bad and ignorant players going on with failing. WG nerfed the torpedoes to reduce the long range torpedo meta. Patatoes ignore it. WG changed the reward system, so inactive (camping) players receive less income. The patatoes ignore it. There was only one change back in the days since the release, which actually had a serious impact on players behaviour and the number of appereances in games of a specific class: the carriers. Carriers were changed to be a very skill dependend class. You got skill, you dominate. You are a patato, you don´t achieve anything. The very same thing has to be done to BBs. Make them skill-dependend. Right now, BB meta is: stay back, snipe and trust on RNG to score the lucky citadell. Skill for secondary armament, and any tier 7+ BB can have a more or less efficient "no brainer" damage area. Those factors have to be removed. Once "BB-Kevin" cannot rely on RNG or AI driven secondary guns, he will need to develope skill, or keep failing in ways beyond any enjoyment. Just like carriers. The way to do this, is as obvious as simple: manual controll to secondaries and drastically increased accuracy. This would be the equal to manual carrier drops: you do it right and got the skill, you might inflict good damage (you sill can bounce or overpenetrate). You suck, and all you shells hit the water. No more lucky hits, no more long range sniping. It will become like we have it with the carriers one out of 10 or 20 CV players will ruin your day, the rest will end up trying. Because, suddenly, the camping patatoes won´t have those lucky shells on 15-20 km range. They won´t have their 10km secondary radius with ultra auto aim. They will have to do it on their own, relying on their skills, which basically 80% of BB-Kevins lack. Once those start missing their shots consecutively on long range, gameplay will change. Cruisers will survive long range fire much better, while brawling vs. BBs with secondary guns will become less dangerous, since BB-Kevins will struggle with handling their weapons. However, this won´t ever happen, so it remains just a theory. Why? Simple: 1.: WG wants BBs to remain money makers for them, not an elite class. 2.: DD and cruiser lobby only care about the 1 out of 10 or 20 players who might ruin their day with his BB, ignoring the 9 - 19 which will be simply cash cows for them. They only consider the change as a mighty buff, and will protest and rage and proclaim doom and end of the (game) world. Because, in the end, they just want BBs to be cash cows, and only their favourite class to be "the" one to rule the seas...

Where is the source for this change? Is this change granted, or just an idea/at testing stage? Does firing guns effect smoke only when firing from withing the smoke (the smoke "bubble"), or even when firing from behind/outside the smoke? The smoke meta has been adressed as one of the major issues for the game experience, beside camping BBs. A change to it, would probably turn out to be a good thing for the overall gameplay. Smoke was always considered a tactical measure. Gameplay allowed to abuse smoke as some kind of "save-area" for the DDs and CL´s using it. People always love to reason with "but in reality" arguments, when justifiying nerfs to BBs, but don´t like to take this point into consideration, when other classes are touched. Ship guns, no matter of the calibre, always cause a huge shockwave when firing. Those shockwaves easily would dispatch any smokescreen, the ship is hiding in. From this point of view, the change is simply a step towards more realism. In addition, since i lack different information, ships firing from behind/outside the smoke, won´t have effect on the smoke. While the discussed change on smoke might have an impact on the solo warriors, smoke will become of even more tactical value. To be honest, from that point of view, i welcome this change. Because, let´s be honest: how many DDs or cruisers have abused their smoke screens for theit own purposes? How often have you been in a situation, where the smokescreen of your accompaning DD or cruiser would have saved your ship, but his smoke screen was already on cooldown, used for some "smoke firing" purposes. With this change, light cruisers and DDs will maybe turn into (even) more teamorientated vessels, covering up supporting ships or even hiding complete fleet movements. I don´t see this change all bad. But it´shouldn´t come all alone. With the smoke meta reduced or gone, BB-campers loose another justification to stay behind, instead of supporting the engaging forces. Next step would be to adress BB range and close quarter combat...

Schämt Ihr Euch nicht, Wargaming? Abgesehen von einem historisch belegbaren Design für ein Tier 10 Schiff, hätte die Royal Navy wirklich ausreichend Material im Bereich Schlachtschiffe zu bieten gehabt, um einen "Fantasy-Schiff" freien Techtree zu präsentieren. Worin lag das Problem, nicht wenigstens die Vanguard auf Tier 8 zu bringen? Ich bin sicherlich kein Royal-Navy Fanboy, aber diese Entwicklung ist wirklich enttäuschend!

No matter which class or specific nation, it usually comes down to the player. The most OP ship/class might appear to be completly inferior, if played by a scrub, while even ships/classes considered inferior can be very powerfull in the hands of a skilled player. Best example might be the current CV situation. If you listen do the wide spread opinion, CVs are broken, inbalanced, not worth to spend money/time on and absolute garbage on top. However, if you talk or listen to dedicated CV players, they are the most powerfull class in game. Despite the fact that i completly fail in playing CVs, as a result of my lack in CV experience, i consider them the last true "skill based" class in this game, and absolutely fine, with the exception of those pretty ridiculous new AP-bombs. BB´s are quite the opposite of the CV-class. They are immensly popular, and for that, played by a majority of the community. As Culiacan_Mexico pointed out perfectly, this leads to a overwhelming majority of poor players going for BBs. WG, for whatever reasons, came up with the idea to screw up BBs completly. WGs original BB base-concept for WG was something like "BB´s, with their long reload and slow turning turrets, have to make every shot count to be successfull". In addition, to be successfull, BB players should have to plan agead. While the later still is true to some point, especially for slow (US) BBs, the first idea of "Making every shot count" has become completly obsolete. To make the "iconic BBs" more accessable to the majority of paying but lowskilled players, BBs have been reduced to "roughly point at your target, RNG will do the rest". The difference between a poor and a good BB player isn´t made up by his gunnery skills (which should be the way to go), but the ability to plan ahead and go for smart positioning. Since gunnery skills have become somewhat meaningless in BBs, even scrubs now can have the lucky "devastating hits" on poor cruisers, just by luck, satisfying the low demands of those poor players, while driving mad the skilled ones. This "meta" has lead to the downfall of BBs in terms of reputation and reputation, and vice versa resulted in a ridiculous BB overpopulation. BBs, which should be the most exclusive ships to play, second only to CVs, have become the "bread and butter" for the scrubs out there. The sad peak of this developement have become the KM ships. With Bismarck, maybe the most iconic BB of all, being the "Volkswagen" for anyone. Worst of all, WG has decided to make this ship a nobrainer. Strong armor, ridiculously rng-depending main-batteries but an even more ridiculous, autoaim, AI-driven ultra-secondary armament. Don´t get me wrong, i love the Bismarck. But i would love her as an ultra-accurate, completly skill based BB even more. The street, WG went down with BBs, was the wrong one, as it was with SPGs in WoT once. Sadly, it took them almost 6 years, to figure this out, so i don´t hope for any improvements on this within the next years. BBs, as they are now, are easy to play, even easier to fail, but almost impossible to master (thanks to rng, especially). In my opinion, BBs should be changed to a level of skill-requirement, equal (or even tougher) than CVs, while on the other hand, making CAs/CL much more accessable and easy to handle, to make cruisers once again the bred and butter class, the "jack of all trades". However, since iconic BBs are the best way to milk money out of the playerbase, nothing will change...

Reine Spekulation meinerseits: das eine Schiff hat den Ruf, ein (für Schlachtschiff-Verhältnisse) gutes und vor allem zielgenaues Schiff zu sein, das andere hat den Ruf, eine verhältnismäßig nutzlose Schrotflinte darzustellen. Also populär vs. unpopulär, guter Ruf vs. schlechter Ruf, legendäres Schiff gegen französisches Schiff. Eins verkauft sich gut, das andere weniger... und wir reden hier immernoch von Preisen, für die man anderswo einen 2 Jahre alten AAA+ Titel bekommt, was in etwa auch dem Alter dieses Spiels, bzw. einiger seiner "Premium-Inhalte" entspricht...

You guys realize, it has only one funnel? It´s a British battleship of the R-class.

When done with immitating BB-crybabies, start recognizing, that nothing will happen or change. And even if it does, it´s still WG. As long as cash flows (which obviously happens), neither your nor mine opinion will change anything. Looking back to alphatest times, when WG claimed to have a clear concept for this game, i can tell, that this concept has long been abandoned. I just hope, that WG will not take as long as they did with WoT, to fix some things and get them straight. But it is completly up to WG, when enlightment will hit them. Until then, all we can do, is get on each others throat.

Is this actually meant to be a constructive thead, or just a come together for the DD-lobby to simply start another "mimimi" and "crycry" about nothing? As you already figured out, all those "indirect buffs to OP BBs" in the last time turned out to be by far less impressive than "feared" by the DD-lobby. In addition, when a BB turned out to be considered as "too effective", it will get "balanced" by BB anyway -> Bismarck. I mean, wasn´t it for the DD lobby, complaining about sniping BBs? With the arrival of the Bismarck, you finally received a BB participating in the front line, tanking damage. Of course, only appreciated, when in the green team, hated, if in the red team and especially focusing on your DD! So, while only a few DD-lobbyists recognized Bismarck´s value, the rest went crying in the forums, demanding nerfs. Because, your personal advantage is always more important than the advantage for others, even the green team. What will happen, if the high tier RN BBs receive radar? Occasionally, you will find 1-2 additional ships with radar per side. Make it +1-2 cruisers with radar, and 2-4 ships will have radar in a team, either green or red. This will either bring the radar BBs (maybe even their allies) to the frontline, so it is of profit for the team, or they will remain camping, and have little effect with their radar. Once you stop taking everything too personal, always asking "but what negative influence might that change hypothetically have on my prefered ship and/or playstyle?", and start considering possible effects on a greater perspective, you might probably start figuring out advantages aswell.

While AP bombs might be worth a discussion, i seriously don´t see a point about "cry,cry, CVs OP,cry, cry". And i am the last person you can call a CV fanboy, considering my poot tier 4 CV performance and at least my US ships mostly fitted completly AAA. No. Thing is: playerbase is completly spoiled. Spoiled by the RNG that saves our poor ships on a frequent basis before annihilation by skill. A skilled DD captain laid down a rather good aimed torpedo salvo for your straight ahead sailing BB? RNG will allow for exactly that one gap you need to turn into those torps, so the damage is avoided or minor. A skilled BB captain aimed a perfect salvo for your broadside tanking BB/cruiser? Don´t worry, RNG will balance it out, spreading the shells all across the map, preventing the well playing and skilled gunner from his well deserved reward, saving your broadside 4 out of 5 times, just because numbers decide. CVs are the one and only class left in this game, where skill > rng. They are powerfull, and AP bombs might be a little be too much, but the standard CV is for sure not OP. It´s the skill of the CV player and the lack of it on it´s target, what makes CV appear OP...

Considering the upcoming nerfs for the 105mm secondary guns of both of these ships, you might want to wait for some feedback. Edit: considering your current state of game experience, i drastically recommend to wait with buying any of those or other high tier premium ships. You completly lack the experience of what it means to be a high tier battleship, especially being a tier 7 or 8 battleship in a tier 9 or 10 matchmaking. In addition, german BB require a different playstyle to other BBs, since they are most effective on medium to short range. This is, where the heat of battle (should) happen, and it requires experience and knowledge to be successfull at those ranges and those tiers. Buying a tier 7 or 8 premium ship right now, will just lead to frustration for you and your teammates. It will totally kill your fun, since you will end up as a better targetting practice, while you will most likely be a waste of a player-slot four your team. In addition, Scharnhorst and Tirpitz rely very strong on a very skilled captain (10-14 skillpoints) to make good use of their potential. If you just want a premium ship for better income, consider a tier 5 or 6 ship, or gain more experience. Forget about any idea, a higher tier premium ship might instantly delete any frustration or drawbacks, experienced so far at lower or midtiers. It just doesn´t work. At tier 7+, better players, more challanging odds, bigger maps, a tougher economy and insane (german) BB shell-spread will pretty quickly drive you away from this game, maybe even leaving a wrong impression of what could have happened, if you would have taken your time...

Rumours has it, WG comes around with a fantasy KGV variant (called the "Monarch"?) for tier 7, to place a fantasy KGV (with 15" guns!?!?!) at tier 8. If they really screw up the RN BB tree that hard, i... i don´t know... still have no words for such a potential epic failure... I mean, it´s not that the RN has to offer enough to come around with a decent, more historically accurate techtree... noooo... maybe WG wants to show a big fat middlefinger to all those RN lovers who were asking for RN BBs for so long? I seriously don´t know... let´s hope, they go for a more historical solution in the end, despite all forecastings...

BB RNG is blessing and doom of it´s target with every salvo fired. The unpredictable shellspread can go just fine, so you cruiser (or even BB) will have a lot of splashes all around, or it takes the devastating tripple-citadell, despite maneuvering like a maniac. This is, by the way, what makes BB sniping so popular. For the (lowskilled) BB player, it´s a gamble with every salvo, the gamble for the lucky hit, or just a waste of another 30 seconds for reload. BB players cannot predict the spread of their volley, and their targets cannot aswell, just guessing for the correct evasion-course and praying for RNG bein on their side. Both compensates for bad skills and limits the impact of good skills, no matter wether aiming skills or dodging skills. I bet, everyone in here can recall games, where 15 salvos went terribly wrong (when in a BB) and the 16th did that lucky tripple citadell on a cruiser, while the first salvo aimed on your cruisers was that one that immediatly reduced you to a fraction of your HP, 1 minute into the game. Any change to penetration mechanics that protect soft targets will aswell protect (and therefore buff) BBs aswell. The only way i see to improve the overall situation, is a drastical change to BB accuracy. They need to become way more accurate. The short-sighted an the anti-BB lobbyists of course no will cry out in disbeleave and laughter, just seeing a major buff to BBs and a drastical nerf to all other classes. All others will accnowledge the truth behind this: nerf to BBs and a buff to cruisers and DDs. With drastically increased BB accuracy, small and maneuverable targets like cruisers and DDs will be almost impossible to be hit at longer ranges or even max range, while stationary/camping or slow moving BBs will provide very valuable targets for concentrated fire. Skilled cruiser/DD captains with good maneuvering skills and good map awarness will easily be able to avoid incoming damage by long range snipers. All but the very best/trained BB gunners will go desperate at range combat, completly ruining their sniping success, forcing them to either go for brawling maneuvers or dropping their BB ambitions at all, going for other classes. Of course, increasing BB accuracy drastically will make them more deadly in close combat. However, DDs and torpedo armed cruisers are deadly on close combat aswell, and even in a brawl, the BB captain needs the skill to aim properly, to avoid bounces or waste his shells on a couple of overpenetrations. Yes, the ammount of devastating hits by BBs in close combat will increase, but so does the number of complete misses or overpens. Lucky shots, with the one shell going wide and scoring a citadell, will decrease. BBs and their salvos will become more predictable, allowing for better maneuvering and espeially a way better survival rate while closing the gap. Last but not least, BB players will soon figure out, that other BBs now pose a much higher thread to them, so the focus might very probably shift from cruisers to BBs. Right now, everybody goes on cruisers first, because they are just so easy to damage. Their vulnerability compensates for BB RNG, since the BB just has a higher chance to be lucky on a weekly armed cruiser, compared to a BB. But with higher accuracy, BB shells are less probably to miss the spot aimed for on the enemy BB, making more or better hits on a BB more probable. Even bow on BBs would suffer greatly from masses of well aimed and placed high calibre HE shells. I am aware, that my theory might sound strange, but considering the fact, that most players (including me) complain most about the lucky hits, the camping BBs score, it appears to be the best to simply remove the luck aspect and replace it by skill requirement. Suddenly, BBs wouldn´t be "the easiest class to play" anymore, but the most skill dependend "all or nothing" class. That way, almost any annoying aspect about BBs would be removed at onced: campers, overpopulation by BB-no-skillers, lucky hits from long range, for the price of a (maybe) increased chance of suffering from well aimed shots at close range, no matter what class you play. I cannot say, wether this might be the ultimate solution, but i would really like to see it on a test-server, or maybe for a test period on the live server. Just to see, if this theory would work out, or if it would screw it (the already screwed meta) even more.

One thing i simply don´t get, is WG´s philosophy why they come up with that much diversity within the newest techtrees. I mean, what´s the point? For example: German cruisers are completly build around AP shells, with great alpha and penetration, but really bad HE ammunition. German BBs suffer from rather bad AP shells and incredibly bad accuracy, while the HE at least is usefull to start fires and even relying on their secondary armaments on higher tiers (which is even more pointless, regarding the skills required...). Now, we got British cruisers, which lack HE shells at all, and we get British BBs with rather tough HE shells! In addition, in regards of those 30km range for the Conqueror, whats the point? A BB, capable of kiting a Yamato? This is pointless! And it for sure doesn´t add for the better of the sniping-BB´s situation. What we need, for all BB trees, are reliable brawlers. Ships that can take a beating (and withstand the overwhelming HE spam and fires) for long enough, to make a difference in the midst of the fighting. More snipers are the last thing anybody wants to see, no matter the prefered class...

Considering the fact, that tier 3-6 secondaries can´t hit a barn from the inside, no matter the ammount of guns or caliber, captain perks or upgrades, secondaries on BBs still remain a more or less decorative aspect, while the skill-compensating RNG of the main batteries remains a limitless source of frustration. As much as i might be anticipating the British BBs, they will still just be a bunch of cashcows with the chance for the lucky hit once in a while, just like most of their kind.