Vaderan

The Gneisenau is in this game for quite a while by now. Do you honestly beleave, you were the first one to recognize this change on the Gneisenau? No. This has been discussed and brought to attention countless times, and a little bit of research would have been enough to figure it out...

If you want to complain about this correctly, try to be a little less biased and look around. You will soon figure out, that all BBs have drastically reduced ranges at both, primary and secondary guns. BB meta is already campy enough. What do you want or expect from historically accurate ranges? 20-30km range cruisers, 40km range japanese torpedos, Yamatos firing at your Conqueror from a completly different map? If, at all, to improve the game, map sizes and gun ranges have to be reduced, not increased...

WG implements the WoWs nations in respect to their historical importance. That´s why the russian/sovietnavy was introduced as third nation. The italian navy is nowhere close to the glory of the russian navy, so it has to wait. You can buy a fancy tier 6 cruiser and bristle with anticipation for the upcoming tier 5 BB, one of the refits i already forgot the name off... (parental advisory: this post may content sarcasm)

The reason why the average and below average BB players hug the border, are simple. It´s the result of their calculation between risk and reward. Go forward and brawl: increase your chance to actually hit something by a little. Increase the chance to get hit by something by 100%. Increase the chance to get outmaneuvered or find yourself in a situation your skills cannot handle: drastically increased. Stay behind and snipe: decrease the chance to actually hit something by a small degree (RNG will do the rest anyway, as an cruiser can tell from lol-citadells) and basically reduce the chance to get outmaneuvred or shot at to almost 0%. Even the best, most dedicated and aggressive BB player is exposed to the same RNG, as the camper. A good aggressive player in a BB might be able to make a difference, but he submits to a very risky gamble, while the camper plays it safe. There are many reasons, why BBs camp. Almost all of them have been discussed. Solutions have been suggested. Turret traverse speed is for sure not the reason, why so many BBs camp...

Don´t get me wrong, but you completly missed my point. This was not about discussing the Yubari as a ship, but about it´s accuracy. Even if the Yubari would be claimed maximum overpowerd because of Torpedoes, Stealth, Flak, good looks or a sexy [edited], it wouldn´t relate in any way with it´s gun accuracy, unless someone would claim her (completly) overpowered because of her accuracy, which is in no way the case. This doesn´t say, i wouldn´t agree or disagree with any of your points concerning the Yubari. Just not in here... ;)

We already got dead cruisers. With just some few exceptions (those cruisers, who are played by very experienced and good players) cruisers are already the class who will be extinct from the map, before DDs or BBs die away. The difference will be, that moving cruisers won´t get deleted by accident anymore, erased by one or several lucky BB volleys. With RNG removed, lol-citas will become a thing of the past. Either the BB is really good in terms of aiming and predicts the way of the cruiser for ~6-12 seconds, in which case the kill is well deserved, or the cruiser reacts properly, and the BB will miss it´s shots. Cruisers simply will survive much longer, and as such, they will receive the opportunity to fight back. One of the main arguments for a inbalance between cruisers and BBs was BB alpha/burst damage vs. cruiser damage over time. With BBs missing at long range, cruisers will have the ability to apply their DoT, before the showdown at short range between torpedoes and increased chance of citadells kicks in. After all, don´t forget that BBs are still meant to delete cruisers. Allowing cruisers to survive untill the BB comes close would already be a significant buff for cruisers, since the current RNG meta simply allows for lucky cruiser extinction at any range. Cruisers suffer the most these days from two types of BB fire. Overmatching shells hitting their decks, or broadside penetrations. With the chance of successfull long range hits for BBs reduced, the number of deck-overmatches will be reduced aswell. This will also increase cruiser survival rate. At shorter ranges, cruiser belt armor can withstand BB shells, if properly angled, so the cruiser can take on a BB at least with reduced risk. In the end, cruisers will have a drastically increased survival rate and life span, compared to today, without rendering the immune to BBs, which cannot be the goal. Last but not least, whatever counts for cruiser captains in terms of improving and becoming better, goes for the BB patatoes aswell. All players would have to learn, how to deal with the new BB meta. However, BB players have proven to be very resistant in terms of selfimprovements and developement. First, BB patatoes, relying on their RNG, will have to learn how to aim and play properly, before the majority of the unaware cruiser players have to learn, how to dodge shells. So again, i see the advantage more with the cruisers. As i already mentioned several times: take a look at the Yubaris statistics. It is an almost to the point accurate cruiser, and despite this, aswell as the fact, that many WoWs veterans play/own this ship, it isn´t famous or even feared for being a DD killer and cruiser exterminator. Don´t overestimate the abilities of the average player. With accurate BBs, it will develope as it did with carriers. A small percentage of dedicated and skilled BB players will turn out to be one man armies in their ships, while the majority will keep struggeling with the mechanics. Don´t forget, we, who are discussing and active in this forums, might be the intellectual elite of this game. Dedicated to it, with the good intention to make it better. Sure, there will be the likes of us out there without ans forum participation. But the majority of players are simply casual players, many of them the patatoes we got used to. They are just that bit of a second slower on the trigger, that little bit less aware about their surroundings, but in the end, when all these tiny differences come together, they will just be that little bit behind in terms of improvement and awarness, that they will never turn into the overpowering BB dominators we fear. They will form the grey mass, that will occasionally score the lucky hit, and will be a force with any kind of potential in a brawl, but nothing more. Just as we got it with the carriers these days. No one with any sense does complain about OP carriers anymore, despite the fact that a good CV-captain still can carry a game more than anybody else. They just lost their fear factor, since there is maybe 1 inbetween 20+ CV-captains, who kicks [edited], while the rest simply keeps trying...

There is some truth in this. However, i completly agree with the danger, that would come with an improved BB accuracy, when we consider it´s effect on close combat. I completly disagree with the argument, that improved accuracy for BBs would increase camping. Let me explain, why: the majority of camping BB players consists of those players, who lack some aspect necessary to play their class properly. Whatever it is, it drives them into thinking, they are best placed camping behind the lines. If you would go for drastically increased BB accuracy, i imagine and expect the following to happen: players think: "great, expert sniping incoming!", and go camping. At 20-25km range, with 12+ seconds of flight time, they suddenly recognize, that they don´t hit anything at all, besides other BBs, which camp without moving. Any DD, CA or even BB with ranged fire perk, that instantly changes course just slightly, when the alarm pops up, will dodge most, if not all incoming long range shots instantly. The only ships, not able to dodge those shots properly, will be those camping bow on, running 5-10 knots, going forward or backwards. This way, you immediatly address two issues of the game: bow on campers (which can now be punished more efficiently) and dodging/situational awarness, which will be more rewarding. Last but not least, with decreasing success in long range sniping, even the bad BB players will figure out, that they will neither score lucky citadells at range any more, nor do anything of value to their team. This will be their own realisation, not forced upon them by nerfs, or by other players, but simply by accnowledging their own lack in skill and luck. Sooner or later, they will start to find a way around this failure, and figure out, that they will be more successfull at shorter ranges. Now i see the point of thread, such a change might pose at closer ranges. However, i´d like to point out, we already got a ship with dramatically good accuracy in this game the IJN Yubari. It has almost pinpoint acuracy, but still, many player, me including, struggle to figure out how to score reliably. The shellspread is that narrow, that i still frequently miss, even at ranges below 10km, missjudging target speed, angle and shell flight time. Transfer this to BBs, and they will already lose a lot of their threat potential. Now also take into cosideration: this change doesn´t just count for that one BB aiming for your cruiser or DD. It applies to all BBs, green like red. They will now pose a bigger thread to each other, much bigger than HE spam of cruisers, probably even similar to the torpedoes of DDs. Even more, to score hits as they like, they need to leave their long range comfort zone and move into the engagement ranges of DDs and cruisers. The meta would change drastically, since the battle area would shrink in size. Engagements would be much more intense, more risky, but more rewarding aswell. BBs would probably deal more damage in short time, but they would have shorter a lifespans aswell. Basically, BBs would become at short range, what DDs and cruisers with torpedoes already are, a high risk, high reward gamble. Where DDs and cruisers need their torpedoes to score, BBs have to make their salvo to connect, otherwise they will lack turnrate and turret traverse speed to get of another salvo. I am not sure, if this could work out, but i think, my theory has some point which could be worth a try, a field test. After all, it wouldn´t be anything that another patch couldn´t make undone. But if it works, it could be the solution of the BB problem. Yubari already shows, that even highly accurate, fast firing cruisers guns aren´t too much of a thread for other cruisers or DDs, so why shouldn´t it work with low firing rate high calibre guns in sluggish BBs? Or did anybody ever read about Yubari being an OP gunship?

We agree in many terms, though we have a different approach, how the situation could be dealt with propperly. (sorry for the wall of text incoming) First of all, the statistic i used to support my theory does not differ between HE and AP damage. It´s simply numbers. BBs are supposed to do the nasty AP one salvo burst damage, while cruisers are more likely suspected to do HE/fire/flooding damage. It doesn´t make a difference between damage dealt on DDs, BBs or cruisers. It´s simply damage done, damage inflicted, maybe repaired or resulting in a ship sunk. The discussion about nerfs and buffs, about BBs vs. DDs vs. cruisers and vice versa has grown old. People tend to focus on the bad things they are most affected from. They don´t take into consideration how often good things happende to them, but how often bad luck hit them hard. But, after all said and done, we still face the fact, that we have a BB overpopulation, with a high DD population following behind, and and a lack of cruisers and maybe even CVs. If we take your approach, and stick with the idea of nerfing BBs very, very hard. What should that nerf look like? And would it solve the problem? Would it reduce the overpopulation. Well, in terms of the overpopulation, it might eventually have some impact. But at what cost? Forcing a mass migration from BB players to other classes by rendering BBs utterly useless? As we already figured out: cruisers themselves are not useless. They aren´t unplayable. After all, they are quiet capable ships, some even considered powerfull. They just suffer in an unbearable way from the battlefield situation, because they end up as primary target for everyone. In that desperate situation, searching for an answer, the cruisers look around to figure out the problem, the reasons. And, since BBs have the most significant impact on cruisers and their citadells, BBs can easily be made out as the primary reason for the desperate cruiser situation. It´s just so easy to point with the finger towards the BBs, because they appear to be superior in almost everything, except for players skills. But that´s simply half the truth. People see the damage potential of BB-AP shells and the damage done to cruisers and almost instantly see their answer. Since it appears so simple, so easy to identify, why even bother to ask further questions? But those questions are the questions needed to be answered. Probably one of the more interesting question: why are cruisers the suffering class? Obvious answer: because BB overpopulation, because BBs can easily kill them. But this answer doesn´t solve the problem, and it doesn´t for sure change anything, untill you keep digging deeper. By class description, BBs are supposed to deal with BBs and cruisers. However, BBs tend to deal with BBs only, if no easy-cheesy-drive-by-cruiser kill is available. Again, the obvious reason can be found quickly: because it is so much more easy to remove the cruiser, than the BB. Players desperatly demand more carriers or drasticall buffs to carriers, so they can take on BBs. People want more space to roam for DDs, so they can deal with BBs. They want nerfs to BBs in terms of guns or survivability, so cruisers can better deal with BBs, Why does nobody even consider to demand a change on BBs, so BBs can just simply take more effective on BBs? Maybe even more effective than they could do on cruisers? The answer is simple: because those people, demanding buffs for other, or even their prefered class(es), want their class to become better. A change on BBs could probably have impact on their prefered class aswell, maybe even an impact they might not like. So rather tinker around on three other classes, instead of just one (as long as we are talking about changes in terms of buffs, of course). But let´s go back to the question, why cruisers are in their desperate situation of being everybodies target. Cruisers, by nature, are forced to be within the worst spot of the battlefield. Between the lines of their (supporting?) BBs, just behind (or even in front) of the screening allied DDs. Well, from the green teams perspective. From the read teams perspective, they are the first line, since DDs try to remain undetected or lay ambushes, while the BBs stay behind. That way, cruisers automatically end up in the line of everybody who can draw a line of sight. The sad reason, why cruisers are almost as depending on smoke meta, as gunboat DDs. Some time ago, WG introduced a high tier upgrade for cruisers to increase their maneuver abilities, to probably dodge incoming BB fire more successfully. Did it work out? Well, i don´t think so. The issue with incoming BB fire is it´s unpredictability. Neither the BB player, nor it´s target, can predict the impact of the incoming shells. Cruisers or DDs, desperatly trying to dodge, still take those one or more lucky shots, guided into their hulls, thanks to the huge area BB shell spread covers, especially at distance. RNG is often considered the best protection for cruisers and DDs, but the truth is: RNG protects other BBs before all others. Because BBs don´t care much about shells spread accross their hulls, simply causing minor damage or even bouncing. They can take those hits, while cruisers and DDs can´t. BBs only fear massive impacts of several shells into weakspotts or citadells, something, RNG doesn´t allow for, especially at range. So, from the BB players perspective, the thing is quiet simple: "spray and pray" at the target with the least resistance at spread shells: cruisers. This makes up his target choice. Spray and pray on a BB will most likely end up in bounces, overpens on the superstructur, maybe regular pens. Citadells on enemy BBs are of course not impossible, but they are so much harder to achieve, compared to cruisers. So, whenever possible, 8 out 10 BB players will most likely shot the cruiser instead of the BB, because an errant shell at a cruiser could still be worth a lol-citadell. So, whatever buff applied to cruisers, DDs or carriers, they will for sure not prevent or protect cruisers from lol-citadells, or DDs from devastating lucky hits. Even more, buffs to cruisers or DDs, which make the even more effective to go vs. BBs, won´t remove BBs from the map-borders. It will force them there. The same goes for CV buffs. Even with guaranteed one shot capability vs. BBs (as we occasionally have already seen with Enterprise AP-Bombs vs. german BBs), the situation won´t change, especially for cruisers and DDs, once they come under fire. In addition, whatever buffs will be applied to reduce the number of BBs on the map, will in the end have impact aswell to all other classes. Imagine removing BBs from the game for a moment: CVs with AP bomb layout will become less usefull, reduced to air controll and torpedoes squads, if available. CVs become (even) less enjoyable, even for dedicated players, while DDs and maybe even cruisers will become the hunted of the CVs. Most likely DDs, since cruisers have better AAA. DDs will run out of cashcows. They have to either hunt down their specimen, search for hidden CVs or deal with their intended counter. Cruisers might appear as the big winners of the situation, just before finding out that they now have to deal with their own medicine. There is only one solution at hand, that can be satisfying in long terms and keep a balance in this game. Whatever change applied, it needs to take place within the BB class. It needs to be a change, that makes BB more effective in terms of fighting other BBs, while making it more difficult, or at least less interesting, in fighting smaller units like cruisers or DDs. This change has to be so obvious, that even the worst BB-patatoe figures it out at an instand, and it needs to be so intruiging to the player, that he wants to apply to this playstyle, instead of going for the camping and sniping meta. A very, very hard nerf won´t accomplish that. There have been nerfs to BBs since alpha, obvious ones, and less obvious ones. One of the later, reducing rewards and income for camping BBs, went past the patatoes without any recognition. Men are always attracted by rewards, and they are driven away by constant, maybe even inevitable failure or defeat. This is perfectly reflected in the present BB meta: brawling in a world of torpedoes (at least in their minds) is inevitable death and failure, with only little to no reward for taking this risk. Camping the borders, staying behind the team and sacrificing other teammates (preferably cruisers, but any will do), while staying unharmed and scoring lucky citadell hits on cruisers every now and then is rewarding. More rewarding, than torpedo soup in the middle of the map. It doesn´t even require much of skill, since RNG will handle it anyway, for the better or worse. Bad BB players rely on it, while the better ones try to compensate, just to be fast with RNG again and again. So, after all, the question that should be answered, is: How can BBs turned into something, best performing when fighting their specimen, without becoming even more powerfull vs. cruisers and DDs, while still remaining a rewarding class, at best with an increased demand in skills?

Am i correct, that the black underlayed "average damage" bagde covers the "number of battles" badge? If so, that statistic might be the most interesting information on this statistic. The statsistic shows, that average damage, survival rate, win rate are all within acceptable parameters, especially within the the CAs and BBs. To be honest, i seriously fail to see, what the cruiser lobby so often loves to claim: BBs do too much damage, have too much survivability, all that stuff. If they were true, there should be a much wider gap in terms of survival rate and average damage between those classes. However, what disturbes me, and what supports the cruiser lobby in some ways, are the numbers of battles played. While Zao and Hindenburg appear to be quiet popular, especially the old-days veteran Des Moines falls back. In short, which of course isn´t very suprising, the three top tier BBs have more battles than the combined force of tier x cruisers, while the carriers don´t even manage to score a 10% participation in battles. Still, they manage to come out best by far in all other statistics. This is, where WG need to act. BBs have long since taken over the role of bread and butter ships from the cruisers. Low skill requirements for battle participation and acceptable to medicore success, combined with good survivability have turned them into the class of choice for all the patatoes. The change required is a hard one, a tough one, and a drastical one: BBs need a very hard increase in skill requirements. The statistic shows, that CVs are still the (most) powerfull class in game. One would probably even claim, they are OP. Hence, we see plenty of "buff CVs" threads, instead of the long gone "nerf CVs" threads. Players have accepted, that CVs need a ton of skill to be excellent in them, but if you master CVs, they are the highest rewarding class in game, while a lack of skill will render them more or less useless for the team, and no fun at all to play. The patatoes simply grew sick of wasting their torpedoes and bombs for nothing with their CVs, failing to score hits and sink ships, because they lack the will or skill to learn and improve. So they switched to BBs, because BBs allow for surviving and borderhugging, and the ridiculous "spray & pray" of their guns allows for satisfying results against unaware cruisers half across the map. This is, what WG needs to adress. BBs have to be removed from the lowskiller table. Make BBs as demanding as carriers in terms of skill requirement, and leave the easy accessability to the cruisers, and the game will change. The players will change. The majority (especially the casual players) want easy to play ships and easy to gain satisfaction. Take this from the BBs, and they will go for a different class. Cruisers need to become the brad and butter class once again...

All together the Zeppelin sounds special, maybe even fun. On the other hand, the red team is more or less for sure equipped with a real CV, so the question remains, wether the Zeppelin will be a valuable addition or the waste of a crucial slot for the green team...

Kongo is one of the best, if not the best Tier 5 BB around, speaking of regular techtree BBs. Get used to miss your shots. Your gunnery skills, no matter how much you develope them, will always get "balanced" out by RNG these days, but that´s simply how BBs are supposed to work in the eyes of WG. You will miss the most urgent and best aimed shots and score lucky double or tripple citadells when expecting only misses. If you can´t stand that gameplay, better try out a different class. Fuso might provide a slightly better experience, but if you don´t enjoy the Kongo, you will simply hate the Nagato...

Because you fail to see the complete picture, and the consequences of your change. As mtm78 already pointed out correctly (although i usually disagree with his blind anti BB bias), the real thread of BBs on long range doesn´t come from their accuracy, but their inaccuracy. Their shellspread simply covers too wide areas, so even the most agile cruiser or DD captain will sooner or later suffer one or even several lol-citadells, just because RNG decided for it. Taking away the lock on ability would just increase the radius of shell-impact, such decreasing the probability of several, well aimed hits on straight forward moving targets, while drastically increasing the chance for lucky hits on agile targets. If you want to punish borderhuggers, you have to go the other way: increase BB accuracy to become the most accurate ships in the game. Of course, at first glimpse, this sounds like a ridiculous buff to this class, and any selfish player will immediatly see the one out of fifty players, able to make use of this accuracy, and fearing for instant deletes of any other vessel in weapon range. Instead, try to think of the 49 out of 50 players, who will simply screw their aim consequently even on medium to short ranges, dealing no damage at all. Take the most accurate ship ingame: the Yubari. It has almost pinpoint accuracy. But even the most skilled players don´t manage to score above average or even devastating results, despite it´s rather quick reload and pretty short engagement range. BBs with 25-30+ seconds of reload will simply struggle to get a propper firing solution at range, especially on maneuvering targets, while stationary or slow targets (like bow-on camping BBs) will be by far more easy to hit. BB-patatoes have shown to be immune to all the latest changes to BBs. They still camp, because RNG still allows for the 1 in a 100 lolcita, which keeps the patatoes satisfied and ruins fun for all others. Increasing BB accuracy will of course provide the chance for devastating strikes, but it will come at the cost of a drasticaly increase of skill requirement. Removing "spray and pray" from BBs will bring them to the lvl of skill requirement, similar to carriers. And we all know, what the result of this increase has turned out to be: a drastical decrease of CV players, a lot of complains from the bad players, of how bad and weak and useless and nerfed to death CVs have become, while the few good players manage to be of huge support for their teams. When patatoes and BB-Kevins start to fail scoring hits with their BBs on long range, sooner or later frustration will kick in. With frustration and the lack of satisfaction, BB-Kevins will search for new ways to gain satisfaction. Either with changing their BB playstyle, or with going for more accessible classes, like cruisers. Both would be a victory for the community and overall gameplay, since the number of BBs will go back, with the remaining BBs searching their fortune within brawling distances, and with (hopefully) cruisers becomming once more the bread and butter class of this game. Last but not least, any kind of active or forseeing gameplay will be rewarded, while camping and bad gameplay can be punished.

The heal gives what? 44%? Even with the repair flagg, this does not make it up to 2/3 of it´s HP, if my maths are correct. In addition, sooner or later, those repairs will be depleted. With their decreased health pool and vulnerabilitiy to IFHE, where is the issue? You want them to be countered by cruisers? With the decreased HP pool, they are indeed vulnerable to torbedoes, more than other BBs. Torpedo hits will take a bigger ammount of their HP, and where other BBs might survive a crippling torpedo salvo, RN BBs will simply go down. Time will tell, how their HP/repair will work out. Considering their great range and effective HE ammunition, i somehow fear for a lot more snipers and campers, than brawlers...

Too sad you fail to see the grand sheme. Sad aswell how you fail to see my point, interpreting just what you want to read. You appear to be one of the smarter players. Your most successfull ships are carriers, so YOU should know about the need for this game, the need to make this game more skill dependend. Try to open your mind for once. Become creative. Look at the game and the way it went down. Try to think in a way beyond simple nerfs and/or buffs. What this game needs, are changes. It´s so much more than just detection range, torpedoes and damage potential. As you already figured out: it´s the players aswell. Now start pondering, what could result in a change of player mindsets. What could (bad) players lead to a change in their behaviour and/or playstyle? Maybe, if you succeed with that, you will understand. Until then, don´t tell others what they know, and what they don´t know...

If you want to discuss this matter seriously, start considering all aspects, not just simply those which appear to be a justification for some premature cryout. As has been mentioned, those 11,1km detection range were a stealth build. To go for, other, more BB suiting perks/aspects have to be neglected. Next, in terms of BB-scales, RN BBs are designed more squishy than other BBs. Less HP, huge superstructures which make for ideal targetting practice and barbecue. They might be able to repair plenty of damage, but they will aswell take more damage than their counterparts. 11,1km detection range sounds like a big deal for a BB, but on the other hand, it has to remain quiet for all the time, while "sneaking" up to the enemy. It will just simply be more easy to stay in a closer combat range than other BBs and still take advantage of "cloaking" abilities. Talking of range: the community was always complaining about BB campers and snipers, and BBs not going for a brawl. If, at all, players of RN BBs will decide to go brawling (which i doubt, cause BB), what do you expect from WG? The last BB line implemented with the idea to enforce brawling BBs, were the germans. Not as stealthy, but with strong secondary guns for brawling support. CA and DD lobby started a shitstorm, complaining and stuff, and WG started tinkering around. Now, with the fourth BB tree arriving, WG pondered, how they could make them attractive for brawling again. Secondaries were no option, radar and stuff has been targets of lobby-shitstorms aswell, so WG went for the stealth approach. What choice did they had? Does anybody in here, in all it´s fanboyism, seriously beleave, that the BB meta and player behaviour will change, if there are no reasons for BBs to move into close combat/brawling range? Does anybody beleave, BBs would work just a simple XP pinjatas and cash cows? BBs are already the borderhuggers and campers, afraid of torpedo walls and HE spam/barbecue. If anybody decides to go for a stealth build with his BB, go and be happy. Celebrate and salute! That player might actually consider to stay with his cruisers and DDs, staying with the pack, not camping behind. If that player is on the red team, be still happy. Because, maybe you will find him within the frontline, exposing his ship to your fires and torpedoes, instead of just sitting back and harrassing you with inaccurate, but area of effect long range fire. He will present a target which you can fight back! Yes, you will find those players who abuse that stealth to be even harder to detect at long range, but those players are just annoying, and no threat in therms of superior skills. Just as annyoing as any other player in any other ship, who abuses tactics and playstyles considered wrong. Yes, the situation is pretty delicate for cruisers, and the BB population is problematic. But threads like this won´t do any better to this game. Threads like this have turned the game into what it is, ever since alpha. Into something that made a steep descent since it´s first moments, and with an even further descent ahead. But why? Because any lobby, may it CV, BB, DDs or cruisers, always just knows to complain about the OPness of the other classes, with only the lobby´s class being the one inferior. But instead of coming around with constructive feadback and a productive exchange, how to improve balance, how to make the game more skill based and less a lottery, all that happens are complains and demands for nerfs. With all this, WG had to loose track of it´s ways and concepts. Yes, cruisers need to be put back into the game as THE bread and butter class. But it won´t happen just with the demand of any kinds of nerfs to the class, placed as their counter: the BBs. Because nerfs to BBs will cause demands for nerfs on other classes aswell. Just like buffs. Instead, classes need to be more balanced by the skills required, with cruisers the most accessable class to play, and BBs a very challanging class to play. Just as it worked with the carriers. They still are powerfull, but the skill requirement is that high, that their numbers were reduced just by this factor. The same has to happe to BBs. Make the rewarding, but demanding. Not this ridiculous "spray´n pray" class. If that can be accomplished, the balance will return to the game from alone, because most players simply go for the easy rewards. With BBs scoring the occasional citadell every ten salvos from 20km range, those patatoes are happy with their rewards. This needs to be adressed. As a last remark: cruisers need the ability to make the decision, weather they want to take the fight against a BB, or not? Great idea (sarcasm!)! BBs are still the class to counter cruisers. If they could choose, where to fight and when to fight their counter, they will most likely always choose to run. Just imagine a BB player expressing the request to be able, when to choose a fight against a DD, or not! You would not know wether to laugh at him or call him crazy...