Sunleader

Oh my God... I Feel Dirty..... I just took my Graf Zeppelin out. (I need to Farm Money to get Yamato once I Finished Izumo and there is no easier way to Farm Money fast than to take a T8 Premium CV...) And the Matchmaking was just Beautiful... Each Team had 2 CVs and 7 Battleships. Only 2 Cruisers and 1 DD..... So I just went ahead and Farmed to my Hearts Content. No Brain Required. Just Dropping Fun and Enjoyment on whoever happened to come into my Sight first... The Enemy Bismarck I reduced to 30k Health in my Second Attack Run. Was pretty Annoyed and tought Yeah... Screw this. I am going Home. Did a 180 Degree Turn and decided to not Participate in this Match xD Worrysome however is the Spread of the MM as it Showcases the Future we might be Heading too. 2 CVs in a Tier 8 Match. DDs being almost Extinct and even Cruisers not really coming up anymore. Thanks to how useless AA has become especially on Cruisers and DDs. The only Classes Gaining Players seem to be CVs and BBs. Joke is. Since the more OP your Ship is the more the Entire Match Relies on your Skills to Win the Match. Causing most of the Potato Players in CVs to constantly Lose Matches even tough they can get High Damage and Kill Counts. CV Numbers are not even Rising in any Impressive Fashion. Because while the Good CV Players have a Field Day with this. The Potatoes end up constantly Losing.... If this is how the Finished CV Rework looks. Then I am not sure what Target Wargaming had in the First Place. They could have just Removed CVs from the Game and would likely have had far less Cost and the same amount of Players as Now...

The Bigger Issue is that these BBs are Painful Truth how Underpowered German BBs are by now. They get the Strong Secondaries as an Extra Gimmick on the Side. While for the German ones WG is selling it as their main Feature by now and claims it Justifies the Horrid Accuracy and Bad General Performance of the German Main Battery Guns...

WarThunder is doing fairly good. Wobbling slightly on the User Counts. But they got a Solid Playerbase. They Introduced Admiral Hipper and Atlanta Cruisers lately. Confirming that Heavy Cruisers are going to be part of the Ship Tree. They also added Cold War Era. With Leopard 2 and Abrams Tank Variants as well as even Helicopters to the Game. Guided Rockets and Cold War Era Jet Aircraft of course are also coming along slowly... In General I am fairly fond of War Thunder as a Game. As I do like Realism from time to time. Unfortunately they are however also messing up on alot of things. Not doing anything about Spawncamping and the Maps often even resulting in Spawncamping if your just doing the Objective because the Objective is Practically next to the Spawn...... Also the Aiming Mechanics for Ships are so Ridiculous Bad and Unnecessarily Complicated that it Hurts.... More on Topic tough. WoWs could really learn alot from War Thunder in terms of Aircraft Gameplay :P

Seriously. With Roon it was really rare to get a Citadel unless it was Plunging Fire. But with Hindenburg nearly Every Salvo of an Enemy BB is a Citadel. Doesnt even matter if I angle. Nose = Citadel, 30 Degree off Nose = Citadel, 60 Degree off Nose = Citadel, Broadside = Citadel.... Even my Rear gets Citadelled... And it doesnt matter if its on High Range or 6km away. Even a Goddamn Cruiser Citadels me from 6km away.... How can this Things Armor be so much Worse than the Roon for Heavens Sake ???? Wasnt the Hindenburg Supposed to be Pretty Hard to Citadel ???

I actually Calculated it in another Post. But i bought Crates for 30 Bucks. Got about 80k Coal. (Used the Cheap Crates not the Premium ones by the way. Cause they gained more coal per Doubloons when compared in cost) You need 240k for a Ship. So 90 Bucks. T9 Premiums cost 60-70 Bucks. So thats pretty reasonable I think. (Despite massive Crates I didnt get the T7 or T8 French DD by the way. Which really annoyed me)

1. Hindenburg has 4 Turrets and I actually Aimed below the Command Tower. But oh well. 2. Last Time a Moskwa came close to my Vladivostock I only got Overpens. Joke is. Moskwa came for me. And I was like. *Cool he got no Torps. Free Exp Pinata incoming* And then he Sailed Broadsite to me. And with freaking 3 Salvos I only got Overpens.... Now pls note. Thats one time Event so maybe Bad Luck. But if nothing else. In that case it was not getting Citadelled. 3. So If I do the Test again and Simply dont Aim at Front Turrets you wont Complain again right ? Good gonna test that tomorrow. 4. I dont believe him. Dont know him after all. And so far he made no effort to back up anything he said. 5. No Offense. But my Tests Showed 3 times as many Citadels on Hinden than on Roon. And so far none of you could Specify a seakspot on Roon at least. 1. Well actually they are lol. 2. Thats a Personal diffamation. Not Evidence. And if you think Average Stats mean the Player cant have had a Good Match your either dishonest or delusional. 3. Dont have Kremlin or Colorado so I dont care. But I do know that the External Armor layout of Roon and Hindenburg is almost Identical. So no Offense but I dont see how angling work better on Hindenburg. Nontheless. I will test this. And if its just to shove it into your face and say your wrong. 4. Good Roon Midsection. So I will test with Midship Shots. I will Report the rest. I am neither Narcissic nor do I care for your opinion of my Personality.

Then dont. Told you this a few times. Your not helping with your L2P comments. If you dont want to spend time explaining and demonstrating things properly then dont post in such Topics. Telling others L2P or that they are wrong helps absolutely nobody and nobody learns anything from it. Moskwa is actually rather hard to Citadel on Close Range thanks to Shells just flying through. But well different Story. As for that Weakspot which is now a Strongpoint on Roon. Ask Mariouus. Cause he pointed out that Armor on Front Part is less angled and only rear Third would have Autobounce Chance. So I on purpose Aimed at the Front Third to demonstrate that he is wrong. Thing is guys. Now we Suddenly have a Weakspot on Hindenburg where its easy to Citadel? And Roon suddenly has a Strong point there making it harder to Citadel ? Then no Offense. But that actually means Roon has better Armor and is harder to Citadel than Hindenburg doesnt it? But before we have any more Magic appearences of Weakspots and Strongpoints. Does Roon have any Weakspot where I should Aim to get more Citadels ? And does Hindenburg have some Strong Point where I should Aim to make the test more even ? Because no Offense. But this Sounds more like you guys are pulling a desperate one out of your rear to not Admit that I was right from the Start. And if I bother doing another Test Run I would prefer to not be doing it just so that afterwards I get to hear about yet another Magic moving weakspot thats apparently there.

So we now have Magic Weakspots which only work when moving ^^ Mate no Offense. But I am not going to Repeat myself to you a Third Time. Just Repeating to each other that the other is wrong makes little Sense. Testing Shows. Roon is Harder to Citadel. Thats a Simple Fact. And well. I see now Reason not to Brawl with a Battleship. Its what Admiral Hipper and Roon were Great at. Even if a Yamato might still get a Citadel on your in close Range. If he Needs 3 Salvos to Kill you. You got nearly 90 Seconds to Pummel and Torp him. That was more than enough in most cases to really Smack him. Anyways. The Facts are Clear. If you want to Contest them please Provide Evidence. Because between your Repeated Statement and my own Experience and Testing there is a Pretty Clear Winner to which side I am going to Believe in. Greetz

Well. If you Read my Opening Post I never said Hindenburg is Bad. I actually even Clarified that Hindenburg is Pretty Scary thanks to the extra Firepower and 2x4 Torps per Side. I just noticed that anyone and his Mom easily Citadels me on Close Range which did not happen with Roon. So I asked here if this is Normal and why that is. Your the ones who Jumped to the Conclusions and instantly barked at me telling me I would be Wrong and Hindenburg is much harder to Citadel etc etc. So I went ahead and took the Time to look for the Reason myself and also Prove you Wrong on the Side. Now. The Fact that Hindenburg is easier to Citadel has not Changed. But going by what Helmut Said it seems the Reason is not what I expected it to be. Thanks to the Ingame Model apparently being Inaccurate.... (Seriously just saying this makes me Mad.... If this wasnt WG we are Talking about I would not believe it if you told me.... But well..... its WG......) Meaning we are back to the Opening Post. Why the **** is Hindenburg so much easier to Citadel ????

Fine with me then. Stupid and Sad. But its not an Issue I got to Press. The Fact that Roon is Harder to Citadel does not Change :P

1. Even if we Assume the actual Ingame Model which should be the most Accurate there is. To not be Accurate. The Testing Confirms that the Roon has Superior Citadel Protection. :) We can Argue about the Reason for that. But the Fact of Roon being much Harder to Citadel remains Unchanged. 2. I dont. It would not make Sense because every Ship has Different Curves on Firing anyways But from Experience you can make some Guesses. For Example. Below 4km I found it Next to Impossible to Citadel the Roon with my Hindenburgs Guns. I did get one Citadel after Several Tries. But it was likely an Underwater Penetration as I Aimed Below Waterline at this Point. For Hindenburg however. I had no Problems getting a Citadel below 4km with every Salvo from my Hindenburg. And I did not Aim below the Waterline. Which again. We can Argue about the Accurate Reason. After all I have not Found any Holes in my Hands and thus have to Conclude that I am not Jesus and not All Knowing :P But the Facts from Testing Showing that the Roon is Harder to Citadel than the Hindenburg do not Change :)

Wrong. A. Because you can Shoot below Turtleback. BBs have enough Penetration to Penetrate the Torpedo Bulge and Citadel Side Armor after Hitting the Water. B. Forward Part is only 30 Degrees and Shells dont Fly in 0 Degree off Water. So the Impact Angle is 32-33 Degrees for the Forward Third of the Ship. And no. Angled Armor is the same as the Roon. Also lol Well Roons Turtleback apparently Does. ^^ The Turtleback Slope. By Putting an Overlay on it :P Now I wont say it Accurate to the Degree. So maybe its 25 or 27 Degrees. But its Accurate enough to know that this is not 35 Degrees.

Unlimited Budget is good. But its really not the Case. I bought Crates for like 30 Bucks and got about 70-80k Coal. T9 Ships usually cost about 70 Bucks. So a T10 Ship for 90 Bucks Sounds Pretty Reasonable. Slight Luck Factor Included. So lets say 80-120 Bucks. Thats far from an Unlimited Budget. And the Whales dont care about this at all. Spending 1000 Bucks is what they do. And we pretty much always have Events.

No its got 7x2 128mm Guns for Secondaries. :) With I think same Range as Bismarck Secondaries tough. its a O-Class Battlecruiser and will be Classifeied as Supercruiser in the Game. Sporting Gneisenau Guns with much higher Accuracy. I think it will be rather Strong. And maybe the First German Sniper. Because the High Accuracy for the 38cm Guns is really allowing you to Pummel Ships pretty badly.

I dont have any T10 Premium Ships. Not for Coal and not for Money. I could Buy one currently. Because in the last Event I bothered Buying some French Containers and got about 80k Coal out of it. Thanks to which I near 200k again :P But I am waiting for Siegfried :)

For example the Containers from First Frensh DD Event had Coal. There was also Coal in the Containers for Savage Event. Coal is actually fairly Common in the Event Containers and we pretty much always got a Event going. So any Ships in the Armory which cant be Bought from the Shop because you first need to Buy Doubloons in the Shop and then Buy them in the Armory are not Premium Ships either :) ? No Offense Mate. But either you can buy them or you cant. Fact is I can get a T10 Ship without Playing for Coal :P

No Offense but you can also Buy Smolensk and Yoshino for Cash. Just that you have to Buy Containers instead so you get the Coal :P

Actually you can also Buy Stuff like Jean Bart or Friesland Directly. Same for Alaska etc. This thing with not being able to just Buy Coal Ships directly using Real Money is long a thing of the Past. And I would not be Surprised if at some point Steel Ships will follow the same Fate and just end up being Sold for Cash.

They also said there wont be Submarines and there wont be T10 Premium Ships ^^ So I dont think thats really mattering ^^

If you wanted to make German Secondaries Competetive with the Insane Firepower Advantage all other Nations hold over them thanks to Accuracy and Bigger Guns you would need to make German Secondaries fire on 15km and give them Similar Accuracy to a Cruiser. Because otherwise they are ultimately just a small Extra Damage on the side. And Nah. Japan would still have its Flair 100% because German Accuracy with Twin Gun Turrets is completely Horrible. So unlike Yamato. The German 48cm Guns would ultimately not hold a Candle to Yamato. As you would likely not really Hit that Good with it unless your basicly 6km away.

Well. Its more than others have brought to me to Disprove my Claim. And while Sample Size is Small. The Differences are also Obvious as **** I mean no Offense. But I think the Fact that I can Citadel a Hindenburg with the German 20cm Guns even on Ranges down to 2km. While the Roon not only less prone to Citadels on higher Ranges but also becomes nearly Impossible to Citadel on 4km or less when using Cruiser Guns. Does tell you quite a bit about which Ship has Better Citadel Armor here.

Yep. And I bothered Measuring it as well. And its 26 Degrees on Roon. Also. His Testing Showed that he got more Citadels on Hindenburg than on Roon. Dont Forget that Shells can go Underwater and hit the Flat Side of the Citadel. So just because a small Part of the Roons Citadel is Autobouncing does not mean its Impossible to Citadel it. And well you can be as Confident as you want. But after you wrote that Yesterday I bothered to actually measure it. And its 26 Degrees. The Hindenburg by the way is 36.5 Degrees. And well as I said. Testing actually tells that extremely well. Because I dont have a Yamato. But I can do Citadels without a Yamato. I can do them with the Hindenburg Themselves. So lets look at the Testing Results. Hindenburg at 8km Range. 3 Salvos to Kill the Ship. 6 Citadels Hit. First Salvo = 1 Second Salvo = 3 Third Salvo = 2 Roon at 8km 5 Salvos to Kill the Ship. 1 Citadel First Salvo = 0 Second Salvo = 0 Third Salvo = 0 Fourth Salvo = 1 Fifth Salvo = 0 Hindenburg at 6km 4 Salvos to Kill the Ship. 3 Citadels First Salvo = 1 Second Salvo = 1 Third Salvo = 0 Fourth Salvo = 1 Roon at 6km 5 Salvos to Kill the Ship. 2 Citadels First Salvo = 1 Second Salvo = 1 Third Salvo = 0 Fourth Salvo = 0 Hindenburg at 4km 4 Salvos to Kill the Ship. 3 Citadels Roon at 4km 5 Salvos to Kill the Ship. No Citadels. I will also put the Replays of the 2 Training Room Games in here. I messed up a bit during the First because I failed to do a Screenshot on a Salvo without Citadels for a Roon thus needing to do it again. And then Accidently did a Hindenburg Twice without Noticing thus needing to do a Second Run after I sorted the Screenshots and noticed that I had Hindenburg Twice and was Missing Roon for that Range.... During the Second Run I also did a Fun Run to Shoot at about 2km at a Roon and a Hindenburg without doing Screenshots. Because I didnt bother doing the range properly. The Result however was that Roon did not get Citadeled while Hindenburg was still pretty easy to Citadel from this very Short Range. So if you dont believe the Screenshots and think I tempered with anything or didnt show you the full Results or something. You can Check the Replays to make sure that 20190923_100214_PGSC110-Hindenburg_01_solomon_islands.wowsreplay 20190923_102154_PGSC110-Hindenburg_01_solomon_islands.wowsreplay Now the Total Verdict is Really not Surprising to me. And its also Extremely Clear. I on Purpose used the Forward Third of the Citadel to Demonstrate the Point. Now on 8km getting a Citadel on Hindenburg was Pretty much Guaranteed. At this Range the Shells Fall from a High Enough Angle that the Ricochet Chance is Removed. So you get a Normal Penetration Check which will almost always pass for BBs and even for Good AP Cruisers. And the Thicker Armor of the Hindenburg actually causes it to take far more Damage here. Because You get less Overpenetrations. The Roon however was still High Enough Angled on the Turtleback to cause Shells to Bounce. And thanks to the Thinner Armor also gets more Overpens and thus taking much less Damage. On 6km the Hindenburg enters into the Range where its Turtleback at least gets a Chance to Bounce off Shells. With the Armor still getting mostly Full Penetration and also Citadels being fairly Easy. But at least not constantly getting Double and Triple Citadels... For the Roon on 6km nothing really Changed. Its still Bouncing more than the Hindenburg thanks to the Steeper Angle. And thanks to the Thinner Armor also still gets more Overpenetrations. On 4km the Hindenburg can still be Citadelled reliably. Which is really Bad when you consider that I used a Cruiser to Fire at it. And even at 4km you will mostly do Full Pens. Which means you can easily Sink the Hinden here. The Roon however now Enters the Range where you will mostly Autobounce. And as most Hits are also Overpens you take very low Damage at this Point. Making the Roon nearly Impossible to Citadel. At least for other Cruisers. A Battleship with Sufficient Penetration Power can still get into the Citadel by Firing at the Belt below the Waterline. Then let me Return the Favor.

Always Happy when People take Interest. However this is not Accurate. 1. Actually the Middle and the Rear Third are Equal on the Roon. You can Check that in the Armor Viewer as well. The Reason that A PART OF the Front Third has a Slightly Steeper Angle. This is because of the Ship being Narrowing down there. And the moment the Narrow Nose goes over to the Bigger Center Part the Angle Flattens. This is by the way the case for Both Ships. 2. The Rear and Middle Third are not 30 but 26 Degrees. They dont need Favorable Conditions. The Part of the Front One is 30 Degrees on Roon.

Well. The thing is. This Counterplay is Generally only Possible if you got a CV helping you. Now dont get me wrong. It is an Dangerous Option. Division a CV with 2 Yamatos. Scout the Enemy CV and have the Yamatos Dev Strike him with their Recon Planes Range. But its also a pretty RNG dependent move.

Sorry Mate. But thats Rubbish. As someone fairly Proficient in CVs by now. I can assure you. That you cant do anything about me attacking you. There is nothing you can Learn to prevent me from dropping on you. Your best course of action is to run and flail like a peasant chased by the Mongol in the medieval ages. Hoping that the Mongols Horse trips over something and misses you as you throw yourself into the mud praying that you somehow survive. If a CV misses you. Then the reason is because he missed. Not because you evaded. He simply Aimed wrong and thus missed. Happens alot even in higher Tiers. Thats unfortunately what happens when your Ship is so overpowered that you can continue even if you mess up over and over again. A CV is very rarely in Danger. So even if he Sucks he can just keep attacking for almost the entire round. Thanks to that. You have alot of People which never actually learn how to do things properly and thus end up not even having the basics down in higher Tiers. After all. Missing an Attack is not in any way Threatening your own Ship as a CV. You can just Continue like before.