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BB's - Something needs to be done before more are released.


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Reaper_JackGBR #1 Posted 19 May 2017 - 03:23 PM

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Before I get into this, and believe me, I'm going to, allow me to show you guys something. 

Spoiler

 

The first point I will make is this: Overpopulation (and that is what this is) of any class is a problem. Let's break that down. 

- Overpopulation of Cruisers = no DD's/CV's, games are fast paced and over relatively quickly

- Overpopulation of Destroyers = Less BB's, Torpedo Soup, games are also over too quickly, whoever gets all caps wins by default. 

- Overpopulation of Carriers = N/A, no longer possible due to hard cap

- Overpopulation of Battleships = No other class is viable in this meta unless tier 10 or individual ships recognized as generally OP in even average hands. Large numbers of BB's crush any ship that isn't them unless solo or without support, but that goes for all ships. I shall explain further. 

 

Right now BB's themselves aren't too dangerous compared to other classes, at least for the most part, it's simply that there are too many of them compared to other classes, when playing a cruiser, your counter is not only stronger than you, but also more numerous, it is impossible to angle against 5 or more BB's at once in 90% of cases, and even if you can, overpenning or overmatching still causes enough damage for you to not last more than one or two enemy salvos regardless of your own play. Moreover large numbers of BB's are also bad for DD's and CV's, as few DD's can be easily spotted by radar or other DD's, and rapidly focused and killed by heavy BB shells. CV's also suffer because from tier 7 and up, BB's have the best AA with the exception of merely a handful of specialized ships, thing is, they don't have to pay for it like other classes do, a fully AA specced Akizuki for example suffers in ship to ship combat and in her torpedo efficiency. Achieving an even reasonably dangerous Gneisenau, N Cal or even Bismarck AA build is almost free when speccing for other things such as secondaries. As such the ships CV's are meant to counter most are instead not countered at all, this is less of an issue at tier 6, if at all, but is now an issue again at tiers 4 and 5 also where manual drop was removed. 

 

Moving on, survivability is the next issue where BB's simply dominate. At all tiers they receive a heal, at all tiers they have the most health and the most armour, the latter two are fine, they have weaknesses to counter that, but the fact that they get heals at all tiers while other classes do not baffles me, while a BB who makes a mistake and takes a nasty salvo of shells or torps can quite easily recover, a Cruiser or DD (until tier 9 for cruisers) has to suffer for it the rest of the game, and in many cases, they didn't even make a mistake and suffer anyway. I'm fine with BB's having heal, but I think it should be introduced to the other ships in some form also. 

 

Now, the survivability of other classes when fighting BB's, basically non existent. Let's go over this. 

Cruisers who show broadside (i.e. a mistake) get punished, I don't think anyone has an issue with this at all except in such scenarios as I outlined above (overpopulation.) However, when playing a cruiser, especially at mid to high tier, it seems to be the case where at least once per game you can and will be citadeled or deleted from half to full health through your bow, stern, deck or while angled. Through absolutely no fault of your own. This is the major issue with BB's vs Cruisers, the BB just has to have RNG get lucky with him/her and the cruiser, who has made zero mistakes, is punished by something beyond the control of either player. At that point it's no longer about PVP, it's about the mechanics actively handicapping one player and strengthening the other. This needs to be fixed in some way or form, and when it is it needs to be announced very publicly so people know about it and will feel somewhat confident playing cruisers again. Of all cruiser issues this is the major one, though there is one more, and that is...concealment. You'd think it was fine, most cruisers it is fine, except that some high tier BB's have better concealment than CA's. Yep. Iowa has better concealment than Hindenburg for example, As do Bismarck and Tirpitz. The Saint Louis only outconceals Iowas and N Cals by significantly less than 1km. So in addition to having everything else going for them, some BB's can also jump cruisers at short range and annihilate them. 

 

Finally, battleships versus destroyers, the ships meant to counter them, counter is a big, weighty word here though, and one that falls flat on it's face. There are multiple reasons for this. The first one is that a BB, at practically any tier, is quite capable of one shotting the ship that is supposed to counter it, in fact BB's are the only class in the entire game that can one shot every other ship. That should already be ringing alarm bells. The only exceptions to this rule are Shimakaze and on occasion tier 10 CV's assuming their targets are stupid, but both of those require torpedoes which are easy to dodge, even for a BB. DD's also now have to deal with BB's that have hydro and radar, not an issue yous say? Only four ships have them? Well true, but those four ships constitute about 35-45% of all BB's played across all tiers, according to the stats. Hydro is a free ticket to never receive torpedoes, which are the biggest threat to a BB besides each other, and radar is a free ticket to a dead DD. Not only has this led to these BB's making their cruiser counterparts (who are supposed to fill that role) obsolete, but it has led to them actively hunting their counter.

 

All of these things combined have led to BB's being the only class that WG cares about catering to, this much seems to be obvious as either they have been buffed or other classes nerfed to reach this gamestate, in fact WG even acknowledged that there were too many BB's last year and yet have continued to nerf other classes and not them, or provide a hard cap for BB's despite the hard cap for CV's being already tested and working fine. Unfortunately this stance has led to a rapid decrease of players since about 6 months ago, with peak numbers being roughly half what they were then. If this is not fixed, the game will continue to drop in popularity, and therefore revenue. The Marketing issues the EU team has specifically compound this also. 

 

That about sums it up, I'm sure others will add to this, and many more will probably call me foolish, ranting incoherently or otherwise wanting Cruisers, DD's or CV's to be OP while crying that BB's are still too weak. I could add yet more things to this list but I won't, I've said enough already. 

Finally, going back to the original picture, this is what happens when an RN premium BB is released, one paid for ship (though I've only seen two in 12 games today), so imagine what will happen when the whole line gets released. These issues have to be addressed before then or we will drown in BB numbers. 

 

TLDR - BB's have too many advantages, numbers and their situation needs to be addressed for other classes to survive and for the game to prosper. 

 


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Live85 #2 Posted 19 May 2017 - 03:25 PM

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I think I'm going to take my battleships out more.

 

Jokes aside, I think that something should be done to make cruisers more appealing. Maybe a better credit/xp income?



Tyrendian89 #3 Posted 19 May 2017 - 03:31 PM

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View PostLive85, on 19 May 2017 - 04:25 PM, said:

I think I'm going to take my battleships out more.

 

Jokes aside, I think that something should be done to make cruisers more appealing. Maybe a better credit/xp income?

 

why not just make them (well, most of them, some certainly dont need any further help) perform a little better?... it's not like that wouldnt also translate into better earnings...

Edited by Tyrendian89, 19 May 2017 - 03:32 PM.

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Dee_82 #4 Posted 19 May 2017 - 03:33 PM

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Id quite like CLs and CAs to be given more credit for performing AA duties, I actually really enjoy playing CLs just now, BBs aren't the big bad Enemy that I think some like to make out, its fairly even and remember, the teams are balanced to a BB heavy game will be just as hard for the other team. other players need to adjust their game play to suite the battle. 

in saying that. The demise of the BB was due to CVs, mostly.  So I think we should Nuff BBs AA and push the reliance for AA on to CLs who in turn get better credits for doing that job.

 

Ive had countless BB heavy battles in my Neptune who is a AA monster, I sit back and protect the BBs as much as possible and get shafted for the effort. personally, I think those two changes would make a world of difference. 



Simikazee #5 Posted 19 May 2017 - 03:49 PM

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I'd suggest starting by giving cruisers more consumables:

-split hydro and defensive fire into separate slots (keep radar in the same slot as hydro)

-maybe give all T5+ cruisers one heal more, buff it slightly for cruisers that already have heal

-maybe give all non-french cruisers standard speed boost, or even to not take away too much from French, a weaker speed boost but with longer duration. This would help in what was supposed to be cruiser's role: fighting DDs

 

Also, an idea came to my mind: a buff only for cruiser defensive fire that would increase main and secondary guns rate of fire for the duration. It would make df useful in fights without carriers and introduce a tactical dilemma when there are carriers around.

 

And a buff to the armour, so that long range BB sniping from 20km+ would not result in one shots.

Other than the armour I don't think cruisers need any direct buffs to their characteristics, but larger and more diverse set of consumables to help them adapt to situations.

 

 

Oh, and I would suggest giving IJN their firework ammo (don't remember the name). It was initially designed as AA shell, but it was better at setting ships on fire. 100% fire chance, range equal to ship tier, low or no dmg.

 


Edited by Simikazee, 19 May 2017 - 04:08 PM.


mtm78 #6 Posted 19 May 2017 - 04:00 PM

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View PostTyrendian89, on 19 May 2017 - 04:31 PM, said:

why not just make them (well, most of them, some certainly dont need any further help) perform a little better?... it's not like that wouldnt also translate into better earnings...

 

Overall I don't think CA's are performing badly at all. CA life is only 'hard' because you can't do anything but long range spam without seeing that 'focus' number climb to 5-8 BB's each time you're spotted < 15km from them. 

 

Limit BB's per team, just like WG limit's CV's, and balance will be much better. 

 

edit:

 

View PostSimikazee, on 19 May 2017 - 04:49 PM, said:

I'd suggest starting by giving cruisers more consumables:
~

 

​This would make them more viable. Esp. giving both hydro and def. AAA is something I fully support. 

Edited by mtm78, 19 May 2017 - 04:01 PM.

"First they nerfed the carriers and I didn't speak out because I didn't play carriers.                                    Then they nerfed the torpedoes and I didn't speak out because I didn't play IJN DDs.

Then they nerfed cruiser HE and I didn't speak out because I didn't spam HE.                                             Then they nerved concealment on every class except BB's, and I didn't speak out because I didn't have common sense

Then the BBabies came for me, and there was no one left to speak out for me."        

 


Kittykami #7 Posted 19 May 2017 - 04:00 PM

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Giving all cruisers a heal pot (of varying effectiveness depending on tier and individual balance) would be a good start. 

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Reaper_JackGBR #8 Posted 19 May 2017 - 04:02 PM

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View Postmtm78, on 19 May 2017 - 04:00 PM, said:

 

Overall I don't think CA's are performing badly at all. CA life is only 'hard' because you can't do anything but long range spam without seeing that 'focus' number climb to 5-8 BB's each time you're spotted < 15km from them. 

 

Limit BB's per team, just like WG limit's CV's, and balance will be much better. 

 

Who are you and what did you do with Mtm? :D

This is the most major issue yes, the cruisers taking citpens regardless of angle is the other, only game situation where you have zero defence or ability to do anything about it. 


Edited by Reaper_JackGBR, 19 May 2017 - 04:02 PM.

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mtm78 #9 Posted 19 May 2017 - 04:08 PM

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View PostReaper_JackGBR, on 19 May 2017 - 05:02 PM, said:

Who are you and what did you do with Mtm? :D

This is the most major issue yes, the cruisers taking citpens regardless of angle is the other, only game situation where you have zero defence or ability to do anything about it. 

 

It's hard to balance cruisers for current BB heavy meta, it would make them severely overperform if WG can get the class distribution more in line with how the game should be. So imho it's only possible to adjust cruisers as a class after the meta is fixed. 

 

Lolpen citadels is the other issue yes, but to some degree I can live with it since with less BB's it's far less likely due to enhanced evasion tanking potential. With the current BB heavy meta evasion tanking becomes less potent because the chance off a stray BB shell still causing that lolpen citadel is much higher. So again, it's an issue just like cruiser balance ( tier 8 might need a heal even after normalized meta ) but it's almost impossible to properly judge and respond to this issue without tackling the class distribution first. 


"First they nerfed the carriers and I didn't speak out because I didn't play carriers.                                    Then they nerfed the torpedoes and I didn't speak out because I didn't play IJN DDs.

Then they nerfed cruiser HE and I didn't speak out because I didn't spam HE.                                             Then they nerved concealment on every class except BB's, and I didn't speak out because I didn't have common sense

Then the BBabies came for me, and there was no one left to speak out for me."        

 


bouncer8409 #10 Posted 19 May 2017 - 04:25 PM

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If i make a mistake in a cruiser i expect and accept that i will be punished however the 20k+ BB one shot needs to be sorted and also spotting, as has been said, some BB have better concealment than CA so can sneak into close range and wreck them with CA having no chance. Not a good situation. 

mtm78 #11 Posted 19 May 2017 - 04:30 PM

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View Postbouncer8409, on 19 May 2017 - 05:25 PM, said:

If i make a mistake in a cruiser i expect and accept that i will be punished however the 20k+ BB one shot needs to be sorted and also spotting, as has been said, some BB have better concealment than CA so can sneak into close range and wreck them with CA having no chance. Not a good situation. 

 

You're wrong, base concealment is never worse on CA then BB. Some BB's when properly specced can get great concealment though, but they never beat CA's with likewise builds. 

"First they nerfed the carriers and I didn't speak out because I didn't play carriers.                                    Then they nerfed the torpedoes and I didn't speak out because I didn't play IJN DDs.

Then they nerfed cruiser HE and I didn't speak out because I didn't spam HE.                                             Then they nerved concealment on every class except BB's, and I didn't speak out because I didn't have common sense

Then the BBabies came for me, and there was no one left to speak out for me."        

 


Dropsiq #12 Posted 19 May 2017 - 04:32 PM

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 Limit BB's per team, just like WG limit's CV's, and balance will be much better.

No no no. Increase numbers of CV for 2 each game ranging from tiers IV - VII and 1 for games VIII - X, and buff them. Or nerf BB AA severly. Or both. Cruisers are mostly "ok".   

 



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bouncer8409 #13 Posted 19 May 2017 - 04:34 PM

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I stand corrected. Ok, CLOSE to concealment of a CA. EG Iowa 12-13k against St Louis 11-12k 

PS i am not an expert so i admit i may be wrong, just going on what i see ingame 

:)



Smeggo #14 Posted 19 May 2017 - 04:39 PM

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I'd say neither heal nor more consumable would help against Cruisers one-shot-hard-life.

I suggest a more drastic approach and remove the AP-timer-buff from closed-beta-times. So only cruisers & destroyers can citadel cruisers.


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Hesp #15 Posted 19 May 2017 - 04:42 PM

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:)



mtm78 #16 Posted 19 May 2017 - 04:45 PM

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View PostDropsiq, on 19 May 2017 - 05:32 PM, said:

No no no. Increase numbers of CV for 2 each game ranging from tiers IV - VII and 1 for games VIII - X, and buff them. Or nerf BB AA severly. Or both. Cruisers are mostly "ok".  

 

WG's 'year of the CV' didn't really help CV playerbase, I don't think it's realistic to expect them to do it now. But it would help a bit yes, the combination that is ( imagine having to strike a group of 8 AAA specced BB's right now.. who're sitting in close group ( near spawn / blue line ofc :trollface: ) ). 

 

View Postbouncer8409, on 19 May 2017 - 05:34 PM, said:

I stand corrected. Ok, CLOSE to concealment of a CA. EG Iowa 12-13k against St Louis 11-12k 

PS i am not an expert so i admit i may be wrong, just going on what i see ingame 

:)

 

:)

"First they nerfed the carriers and I didn't speak out because I didn't play carriers.                                    Then they nerfed the torpedoes and I didn't speak out because I didn't play IJN DDs.

Then they nerfed cruiser HE and I didn't speak out because I didn't spam HE.                                             Then they nerved concealment on every class except BB's, and I didn't speak out because I didn't have common sense

Then the BBabies came for me, and there was no one left to speak out for me."        

 


shamelesscreature #17 Posted 19 May 2017 - 04:55 PM

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View Postmtm78, on 19 May 2017 - 06:30 PM, said:

 

You're wrong, base concealment is never worse on CA then BB. Some BB's when properly specced can get great concealment though, but they never beat CA's with likewise builds. 

 

And now the reality...

 

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Simikazee #18 Posted 19 May 2017 - 04:56 PM

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View PostDropsiq, on 19 May 2017 - 04:32 PM, said:

No no no. Increase numbers of CV for 2 each game ranging from tiers IV - VII and 1 for games VIII - X, and buff them. Or nerf BB AA severly. Or both. Cruisers are mostly "ok".   

 

There is not enough CVs for 2 in each game, it also is not fun having same team composition all the time.

Buffing CV is also a no go, since a good CV already has too much impact on the game, especially when CV in other team sucks.

CV s first and foremost need difference in performance between good and bad players reduced, buffing can only go after that.

BB nerf is an option, but imagine the backlash when you make 40% of playerbase  butthurt. I doubt WG will ever do that.

A hard cap on BBs per battle is an option, and I personally wouldn't care for waiting times for BB players, but WG clearly does.

It's also not the most elegant solution and I can see why WG would be reculant to do that even if they too didn't care about waiting times.

 

That only leaves CA buff as an option, but we all seem to agree that they don't need direct buffs. Because we still haven't seen buffs to cruisers in general, only certain underperforming ships, WG seems to agree.

It's also a reason I reccomend doing something with consumables, because they bring utility and help adapt to current situation more than anything and olnly bring benefits for a short time while active. A single heal that can heal up to 20% up is less impactfull than buffing hp by 20%.

 

 

It might be that they are hoping for CV rework to be inpactfull enough to reduce BB population, but that makes the waiting longer.

 

 


 


Edited by Simikazee, 20 May 2017 - 12:03 AM.


Captain_LOZFFVII #19 Posted 19 May 2017 - 05:05 PM

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I say make it harder for BBs to earn credits - make it harder for them to go up tiers and make bad games more costly.

Then make it easier for DDs and CL/CA to earn credits - make them more enticing for BB players who are now sitting on sub-1mil credits because their ships cost so much to repair.

 

Hit them where it hurts - their wallet.



0BlackSkull0 #20 Posted 19 May 2017 - 05:08 PM

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View PostReaper_JackGBR, on 19 May 2017 - 04:23 PM, said:

Before I get into this, and believe me, I'm going to, allow me to show you guys something. 

Spoiler

 

The first point I will make is this: Overpopulation (and that is what this is) of any class is a problem. Let's break that down. 

- Overpopulation of Cruisers = no DD's/CV's, games are fast paced and over relatively quickly

- Overpopulation of Destroyers = Less BB's, Torpedo Soup, games are also over too quickly, whoever gets all caps wins by default. 

- Overpopulation of Carriers = N/A, no longer possible due to hard cap

- Overpopulation of Battleships = No other class is viable in this meta unless tier 10 or individual ships recognized as generally OP in even average hands. Large numbers of BB's crush any ship that isn't them unless solo or without support, but that goes for all ships. I shall explain further. 

 

Right now BB's themselves aren't too dangerous compared to other classes, at least for the most part, it's simply that there are too many of them compared to other classes, when playing a cruiser, your counter is not only stronger than you, but also more numerous, it is impossible to angle against 5 or more BB's at once in 90% of cases, and even if you can, overpenning or overmatching still causes enough damage for you to not last more than one or two enemy salvos regardless of your own play. Moreover large numbers of BB's are also bad for DD's and CV's, as few DD's can be easily spotted by radar or other DD's, and rapidly focused and killed by heavy BB shells. CV's also suffer because from tier 7 and up, BB's have the best AA with the exception of merely a handful of specialized ships, thing is, they don't have to pay for it like other classes do, a fully AA specced Akizuki for example suffers in ship to ship combat and in her torpedo efficiency. Achieving an even reasonably dangerous Gneisenau, N Cal or even Bismarck AA build is almost free when speccing for other things such as secondaries. As such the ships CV's are meant to counter most are instead not countered at all, this is less of an issue at tier 6, if at all, but is now an issue again at tiers 4 and 5 also where manual drop was removed. 

 

Moving on, survivability is the next issue where BB's simply dominate. At all tiers they receive a heal, at all tiers they have the most health and the most armour, the latter two are fine, they have weaknesses to counter that, but the fact that they get heals at all tiers while other classes do not baffles me, while a BB who makes a mistake and takes a nasty salvo of shells or torps can quite easily recover, a Cruiser or DD (until tier 9 for cruisers) has to suffer for it the rest of the game, and in many cases, they didn't even make a mistake and suffer anyway. I'm fine with BB's having heal, but I think it should be introduced to the other ships in some form also. 

 

Now, the survivability of other classes when fighting BB's, basically non existent. Let's go over this. 

Cruisers who show broadside (i.e. a mistake) get punished, I don't think anyone has an issue with this at all except in such scenarios as I outlined above (overpopulation.) However, when playing a cruiser, especially at mid to high tier, it seems to be the case where at least once per game you can and will be citadeled or deleted from half to full health through your bow, stern, deck or while angled. Through absolutely no fault of your own. This is the major issue with BB's vs Cruisers, the BB just has to have RNG get lucky with him/her and the cruiser, who has made zero mistakes, is punished by something beyond the control of either player. At that point it's no longer about PVP, it's about the mechanics actively handicapping one player and strengthening the other. This needs to be fixed in some way or form, and when it is it needs to be announced very publicly so people know about it and will feel somewhat confident playing cruisers again. Of all cruiser issues this is the major one, though there is one more, and that is...concealment. You'd think it was fine, most cruisers it is fine, except that some high tier BB's have better concealment than CA's. Yep. Iowa has better concealment than Hindenburg for example, As do Bismarck and Tirpitz. The Saint Louis only outconceals Iowas and N Cals by significantly less than 1km. So in addition to having everything else going for them, some BB's can also jump cruisers at short range and annihilate them. 

 

Finally, battleships versus destroyers, the ships meant to counter them, counter is a big, weighty word here though, and one that falls flat on it's face. There are multiple reasons for this. The first one is that a BB, at practically any tier, is quite capable of one shotting the ship that is supposed to counter it, in fact BB's are the only class in the entire game that can one shot every other ship. That should already be ringing alarm bells. The only exceptions to this rule are Shimakaze and on occasion tier 10 CV's assuming their targets are stupid, but both of those require torpedoes which are easy to dodge, even for a BB. DD's also now have to deal with BB's that have hydro and radar, not an issue yous say? Only four ships have them? Well true, but those four ships constitute about 35-45% of all BB's played across all tiers, according to the stats. Hydro is a free ticket to never receive torpedoes, which are the biggest threat to a BB besides each other, and radar is a free ticket to a dead DD. Not only has this led to these BB's making their cruiser counterparts (who are supposed to fill that role) obsolete, but it has led to them actively hunting their counter.

 

All of these things combined have led to BB's being the only class that WG cares about catering to, this much seems to be obvious as either they have been buffed or other classes nerfed to reach this gamestate, in fact WG even acknowledged that there were too many BB's last year and yet have continued to nerf other classes and not them, or provide a hard cap for BB's despite the hard cap for CV's being already tested and working fine. Unfortunately this stance has led to a rapid decrease of players since about 6 months ago, with peak numbers being roughly half what they were then. If this is not fixed, the game will continue to drop in popularity, and therefore revenue. The Marketing issues the EU team has specifically compound this also. 

 

That about sums it up, I'm sure others will add to this, and many more will probably call me foolish, ranting incoherently or otherwise wanting Cruisers, DD's or CV's to be OP while crying that BB's are still too weak. I could add yet more things to this list but I won't, I've said enough already. 

Finally, going back to the original picture, this is what happens when an RN premium BB is released, one paid for ship (though I've only seen two in 12 games today), so imagine what will happen when the whole line gets released. These issues have to be addressed before then or we will drown in BB numbers. 

 

TLDR - BB's have too many advantages, numbers and their situation needs to be addressed for other classes to survive and for the game to prosper. 

 

 

This sums up the whole problem I have with the game right now! Thank you sir! Get your well deserved like!

OMNI - Odem Mortis International





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    Kartoffelmos, steviln