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An analytical look at Duca d'Aosta(see disclaimer)


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Deamon93 #1 Posted 13 March 2017 - 08:19 AM

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DISCLAIMER: I copied/pasted a thread originally made by Phoenix_jz in the NA forum. You can find the original here

DISCLAIMER #2: had to remove some images because the EU forum didn't let me post the original due to the presence of too many images

View PostPhoenix_jz, on 09 March 2017 - 02:24 AM, said:

Emanuele Filiberto Duca d'Aosta

Victoria nobis vita

 

 

So, as I’m sure is obvious, I’m excited as hell for Duca d’Aosta, Italy’s first ship to make it to the game – and by extension, anything Italian in WG product (discounting a Ba.27 under Chinese flag in WoWp, and a 20mm cannon in WoT).

 

So, I figured I'd do a full-on examination of this Condottieri-type light cruiser, and how she might shape up as the tier VI cruiser she’ll be.

 

The lead ship of the 4th Condottieri subgroup, her class was an improvement over the preceding 3rd type, also known as the Montecuccoli-class. The Montecuccoli-class was Italy’s first true light cruisers  (the di Giussano-class was more meant as smaller scout-cruisers/large destroyer hunters, and the Cadorna-class was only an improvement on them), and its hull is already in the game to a large degree. The hull of the Russian Kirov-class heavy cruisers is the same, with some minor differences, as that of Montecuccoli

The Duca d’Aosta-class improved on their predecessors in many ways, increasing the ship’s armor, engine power, and thus tonnage. Thus, the main belt reached 70mm, with an extra 35mm bulkhead behind that. The deck armor ranged from 30 to 35mm, and the side of the hull above the main belt was 20mm thick. The citadel space was closed off by bulkheads 50mm bulkheads at the waterline, and 30mm below the waterline. The machinery power also increased to 110,000hp, allowing the cruisers to maintain their high top speed of 36.5 knots, although on trials they made over 37 knots.

They kept the same main armament of 8x 152mm guns, so overall firepower didn't improve, but the AA as-built was slightly better than the Montecuccoli.

 

Duca d'Aosta was named for Prince Emanuele Filiberto, who was Duke of Aosta. This wasn't simply a nod to the monarchy, however. All of the Condottieri were named after military leaders, and the 4th group was no exception. Her sister, Eugenio di Savoia, was named for the illustrious general, Prince Eugene of Savoy, who had three other ships named after him (from WWI; a British monitor and an Austrian Battleship, and then from WWII the well-known heavy cruiser Prinz Eugen). Emanuele Filiberto, meanwhile, was not just a royal figure, but in fact a military leader, a Field Marshal commanding the Italian Third Army during WWI, for which he became known as "Duca invitto," "Undefeated Duke." This was earned through the army he commanded, known as "Armata invitto" (Undefeated Army), which earned and held that record in the First World War.

 

 

Duca d'Aosta was laid down on October 29th of 1932, being completed and commissioned on July 13th of 1935. She managed to, despite taking part in numerous major battles, as well as raiding missions and convoy escort missions, not taking a single bit of damage for the whole of the war.

 

So, what would this CL be like in game?

 

Firepower:

 

Her Main Armament consisted of eight 152mm/53 Model 1929 cannons, the most common gun among the Regia Marina's light cruisers. These guns were improved versions of the previous 1926 version, but did lose the hilarious 1000mps velocity. They fired either a 47.5 kg AP shell at 850mps, or a 44.3 kg HE shell with a 2.3 kg bursting charge at 950mps. Relevant formulas tell us the AP should do 3000 damage, and the HE* 1900, with 7% fire chance. The guns could output 8 rpm, giving a 7.5 second reload time, for a total broadside RoF of 64 rounds a minute, 32 a minute in the fore or aft firing arcs.

 

*HE numbers very vulnerable to gimmicks, like in the case of Japan and Germany, so I'm not terribly confident in that. I'm more sure on the fire chance coming in at around 7-8%, though.

 

Speaking of firing arcs, the turrets could rotate at 6º/sec, which gives us a 30 second timespan for the guns to traverse 180º. The turrets themselves had a field of fire of 300º, giving us this image as far as firing arcs of the main guns go;

 

 

For a view with helpful red lines:

 

In practice, this should give you very good fields of fire, so you shouldn't have to flash too much broadside to give one.

 

Update - Leaked stats give the following stats for her guns:

 

Block Quote

 

Range: 14.0 km
Reload Time: 7.5 seconds (8 rpm)
Turret Rotation Speed: 30 sec/180° (6º/sec)
Sigma : 2.0

HE Ammo: 152mm HE
Damage: 2100
Initial velocity: 950m/s
Chance of fire: 7%

AP Ammo: 152mm AP Early type (M1926)
Damage: 3200
Initial velocity: 1000m/s
Penetration (5km/10km) : 200mm/122mm

 

 

Secondary Battery/AA:

3x2 100mm/47 Model 1928 (DP)

-Fired a 13.8 kg HE shell at 850mps

-RoF was 10 rpm, for a 6 second reload time

-Asu Range will likely be 4.5 km

-Unkown dps - likely better than the Minsini gun present on Krasny Krym through better elevation angles. My guess would be between 20-30 dps for the three mounts combined.

-AA range - Likely 4.5 km as well.

 

Update - Leaked stats give the following stats for her DP guns:

 

Block Quote

ASu:

Range: 4.5 km
Reload: 6 seconds (10 rpm)
Damage: 1500
Chance of fire: 6%

 

AA (3x2 100mm/47):

-20 dps

-4 km range

 

4x2 37mm/54 Model 1932

-Workhorse AA gun of the Regia Marina, should tell us an awful lot on how Italy's AA will pan out.

-unknown dps - .823 kg HE projectile fired at 800mps, RoF (was selectable) varied from 60 to 120 rpm.

-unknown range - extremely likely to be 3.51 km, effectively a given.

 

6x2 13.2mm/76 Model 1931

-A common MG found on many RM ships, usually swapped out for 20mm cannons during the war (although not in this case).

-21 dps - very similar to the 13.2mm MG found on Japanese ships, likely to have the same stats

-1.2 km range - It's a heavy MG. They all go out to 1.2 km.

 

Update - Leaked stats give the following stats for her Medium/Light AA guns:

 

Block Quote

4x2 37mm/54:

-46 dps

-3.5 km range

 

4x2 13.2mm/76

-16 dps

-1.2 km range

 

Torpedo Armament:

2x3 533mm Si 'M'

-270 kg warhead - damage formulas suggest 13112 damage

-Range likely to be either 4 km or 8 km

-Depending on which version used, speed at 4 km could be either 66 or 68 knots. At 8 km, 55 or 58 knots.

 

Update - Leaked stats give the following stats for her Torpedoes:

 

Block Quote

Damage: 13367
Speed: 66 knots
Range: 4.5 km
Reload: 71 seconds (1:11)
Detectability: 1.4 km

 

Maneuverability:

-36.5 knot top speed!

-This makes it one of the fastest ships at tier VI, tied with Farragut, Hatusharu, and only surpassed by the 38 knot destroyers Gnevny and Anshan.

-Extremely powerful machinery (110,000hp) on a light-ish hull, should accelerate fairly well. Turning might be sluggish, but she's shorter than the Molotov, so perhaps a smaller turning radius than that.

 

Update - Leaked stats give the following stats for her Maneuverability and Concealment :

 

Block Quote

Max Speed: 36.5 knots
Rudder Shift Time: 7.63 seconds
Turning Circle Radius: 710 m
Surface Detectability: 12.06km
Air Detectability: 7.35 km

 

Survivability:

 

Health:

-10,374 ton full load - at a tier that ranges from 8,900 (Nürnberg) to 13,897 (Cleveland) in terms of tonnage (though Cleveland is an outlier, the next closest ship is Aoba at 11,847 tons). She lands almost exactly squarely between Nürnberg and Aoba, so her Hitpoints will definitely be between 29,000 and 30,000, my guess would be about 29,500-29,600.

 

Armor: This is where it gets interesting.

The Numbers

 

Fortunately, we also have pictures to show off the armor scheme:

 

Longitudinal View: 

 

Beam View(includes view of barbette armor):

 

But that's not all. So, seeing as WG was kind enough to supply us with these images;

 

 

I decided to overlay the armor to show exactly where all this stuff lines up. So, first, here's simply overlaying the side-on view:

 

 

Well, most of that view is pretty useless. Well, good thing there's a fix for that. Here's another view of Duca d'Aosta, with only the armored spaces overlaid:

 

 

So, do you see what I see? Hint; look at the waterline.

 

Go-Go gadget, Red Line!:

 

Aside from the barbettes, which aren't part of the citadel, look at how much of the citadel is underwater, and how little is above it! She won't be a very easy target to citadel, despite the thin armor. Now, the armor pictures I showed off above show the waterline riding much lower on the ship, leaving most of the belt out of the water. My only guess is that such pictures were drawn showing the ship at normal or light load, hence the ship is further out of the water.

 

Her extremity armor will also determine a lot about how the ship takes punishment. Cruisers at tier VI vary in their bow/stern armor, some featuring 13mm, others 16mm. This will have a significant effect on what cruisers she can face.

With 13mm of bow armor, she'll be able to autobounce shells from any other light cruiser, 180mm or less. However, heavy cruisers will be able to pen her from the bow at any angle.

With 16mm of bow armor, she'll be able to autobounce any shells from heavy cruisers (excluding Spee) as well, up to and including Moskva's 220mm guns.

 

Oddly enough, she does get a little more protection from that strip of armor above her belt, the 20mm thick plating. On most ships of this tier, the armor in this area would range from 13-19mm. Good enough to stop lol-pens from cruiser guns, and defend against low-caliber HE in a few cases. 20mm gets you a bit further.

 

With 20mm of armor, your side is no longer vulnerable to being overmatched by the guns of two of the best cruiser-killers around these tiers - the 11" guns of Graf Spee and Scharnhorst, able to overmatch 19mm plates, but not 20mm plates. This does not mean you can go charging at them angled without fear... all they need to do is aim at your bow otherwise, but this still is useful to have.

It also gives some protection against destroyer HE. 20mm armor will prevent the penetration of any HE of 120mm caliber or less - although it can't stop any IFHE shells.

 

Update - Leaked stats give the following stats for her Survivability:

 

Block Quote

Ship HP: 29700
Deck Armour: 15-35mm
Citadel Protection: 16mm – 70mm
Torpedo Protection: 7%

 

-This indicates her extremity armor should reach 16mm, allowing her to auto-bounce heavy cruiser guns on her bow and stern as well.

 

Just how Duca d'Aosta shapes up in WoWs will be quite dependent on what WG decides, as many things, as much as this game is based in/on historical events and equipment, are somewhat arbitrarily decided on by WG in the name of balance. For all we know, WG could load her down with gimmicks... or perhaps they've learned from the RN cruisers, and will avoid that stuff. We do have the rumor mill spinning about cruisers with Speed boost abilities, and although that's been more focused on French Cruisers, it's actually more appropriate for the Italian cruisers, as they achieved much higher speeds on their trials than in service (for example, Duca d'Aosta herself made 37.35 knots on trials, with her machinery reaching just short of 128,000hp). And if Molotov can get her trial speeds...

 

Anyways, from what I can see, we're looking at an anti-DD warship, best equipped for hunting down and killing enemy destroyers. Her high speed makes her easily able to keep up, and close the range with most enemy destroyers. Her armor layout makes her oddly resistant to many smaller DD HE shells, although she's still quite vulnerable to them (127mm and 130mm, for example, won't have issues damaging her, nor will any IFHE shell... which is normal for most tier VI cruisers), and her low citadel should make her very difficult for Destroyer AP to citadel her. Her guns fire very rapidly, and the HE, with it's incredible 950 mps velocity, will easily be able to peg enemy destroyers from a distance. Low damage numbers per shell could be an issue for this class, however... but that could be remedied by WG playing mix-and-match with the guns and allowing Duca d'Aosta to use the older ammunition from 1926, 50kg shells (increasing the AP damage to 3100), or pair that and the original muzzle velocity of 1000mps (giving 3300 AP damage). The HE shells... well, they're light and the bursting charge is small. I don't expect, unless WG interferes here, for their damage to be high at all, and 1900-2000 sounds about right.

 

Also, she might be able to equip a spotter (she carried an Ro.43), which would extend her range... and my assumption would be that the Italian ships get very long ranges like Russia or Germany, though that's ultimately up to WG.

 

 

 

All I know is, I can't wait for her to arrive! My wallet is ready!

 

*Note - Updated with Preliminary stats

 


Edited by Deamon93, 13 March 2017 - 10:39 AM.

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Historynerd #2 Posted 13 March 2017 - 08:28 AM

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I had read the post; very well thought of.

 

However, I have a doubt. Is the waterline calculated correctly, to show how much citadel is vulnerable? Both before the bow and after the aft section, it looks like the line goes above the normal waterline for the ship, therefore hiding a portion of the citadel that instead should be open.


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Kruzenstern #3 Posted 13 March 2017 - 09:25 AM

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Nice and very informative post. But the leaked stats didn't make it through the quotation...
littosun.png

Deamon93 #4 Posted 13 March 2017 - 10:35 AM

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View PostHistorynerd, on 13 March 2017 - 09:28 AM, said:

I had read the post; very well thought of.

 

However, I have a doubt. Is the waterline calculated correctly, to show how much citadel is vulnerable? Both before the bow and after the aft section, it looks like the line goes above the normal waterline for the ship, therefore hiding a portion of the citadel that instead should be open.

 

I believe he drew the line between the green section of the keel and the camo scheme. I might be wrong though so I'll have to ask him to be 100% sure. Then again until d'Aosta goes on live testing will be hard to know for sure(since in that case would be much easier to see where exactly the citadel is in relation to the water line).

 

View PostKruzenstern, on 13 March 2017 - 10:25 AM, said:

Nice and very informative post. But the leaked stats didn't make it through the quotation...

 

Ups, will fix it right away.

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Zafkiel_Sama #5 Posted 13 March 2017 - 10:49 AM

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Great post , you never end a day without knowing something new :3 . The 152mm/53 guns are one of those guns that you look at em in IRL pics , and you wonder how they ended up with that turret design

                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                   


Historynerd #6 Posted 13 March 2017 - 10:52 AM

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View PostZafkiel_Sama, on 13 March 2017 - 11:49 AM, said:

Great post , you never end a day without knowing something new :3 . The 152mm/53 guns are one of those guns that you look at em in IRL pics , and you wonder how they ended up with that turret design

 

C'mon, it wasn't just us Italians that went with similar things.

Take a look on the turrets on the Omaha-class:

Spoiler

 


"We'll go and get ourselves killed for the King and for the country; but that does not give us victory, and win we must." - Carlo Pellion di Persano

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Admiral_H_Nelson #7 Posted 13 March 2017 - 11:31 AM

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@Deamon93

Great job in bringing this information to us! :honoring:

 

The first Italian ship in the game - and its a beauty! Can't wait! :)


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Exocet6951 #8 Posted 13 March 2017 - 11:40 AM

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The ship looks absolutely lovely.

Probably an autobuy if accuracy is good enough, and WG doesn't pull off a dastardly "lol all the air drag" move, making the guns worthless past 10km or something.



The ship would have looked even better with a more elongated bow, but let's chalk this up to the artistic philosophy "mistakes are made on purpose because only god is perfect" :P

Deamon93 #9 Posted 13 March 2017 - 12:08 PM

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View PostZafkiel_Sama, on 13 March 2017 - 11:49 AM, said:

Great post , you never end a day without knowing something new :3 . The 152mm/53 guns are one of those guns that you look at em in IRL pics , and you wonder how they ended up with that turret design

 

Many nations put guns close together to save weight(primarily on light cruisers and destroyers even though it happened on heavy cruisers as well). Eventually those problems got adressed when weight wasn't an issue anymore

 

View PostAdmiral_H_Nelson, on 13 March 2017 - 12:31 PM, said:

@Deamon93

Great job in bringing this information to us! :honoring:

 

The first Italian ship in the game - and its a beauty! Can't wait! :)

 

You're welcome! It's a pleasure also because he has helped me for my thread(he provided the images with the various lines)

 

View PostExocet6951, on 13 March 2017 - 12:40 PM, said:

The ship looks absolutely lovely.

Probably an autobuy if accuracy is good enough, and WG doesn't pull off a dastardly "lol all the air drag" move, making the guns worthless past 10km or something.



The ship would have looked even better with a more elongated bow, but let's chalk this up to the artistic philosophy "mistakes are made on purpose because only god is perfect" :P

 

She does indeed but usually Italian ships looked nice. Regarding drag sadly I don't know how exactly the shells are shaped(ie how many crh the shell had). The overall length was 63 cm and that's the only information navweaps provides.

 

Making the ships even longer would have degraded her ability to turn, she's a ship after all not a train :trollface:


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LDPDC #10 Posted 13 March 2017 - 04:38 PM

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I read that Duca d'Aosta was paired with french cruisers (Gloire & Suffren) to patrol the Atlantic after Italy re-entered the war with the allies. Anyone heard of this?

SparvieroVV #11 Posted 13 March 2017 - 04:40 PM

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The draft for the ship at normal is 6,1 and full 6,5. I leave that to whoever to predict citadel location. Phoenix thinks the in game ship will have to adapt an angle to the citadel armor. So I don't know if WG will default to higher overall citadel or a second layer of thinner armor like on other ships since they cannot do sloped gradients.

SparvieroVV #12 Posted 13 March 2017 - 04:42 PM

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View PostLDPDC, on 13 March 2017 - 04:38 PM, said:

I read that Duca d'Aosta was paired with french cruisers (Gloire & Suffren) to patrol the Atlantic after Italy re-entered the war with the allies. Anyone heard of this?

 

If the French ships where also based out of Freetown then maybe yes?

LDPDC #13 Posted 13 March 2017 - 05:01 PM

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View PostSparvieroVV, on 13 March 2017 - 04:42 PM, said:

 

If the French ships where also based out of Freetown then maybe yes?

 

Looks like it was the case. wiki page of Gloire mentions Dakar as operationnal base but I doubt its true. Quite fun anyways since both navies were designed to fight each other and (almost) never got the occasion.

 

Edit: (Adding wiki text) Gloire then operated from Dakar together with other French and Italian cruisers, searching for Axis blockade runners in the central and south Atlantic until 16 January 1944, when she moved to the Mediterranean.


Edited by LDPDC, 13 March 2017 - 05:02 PM.


Historynerd #14 Posted 13 March 2017 - 05:04 PM

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View PostLDPDC, on 13 March 2017 - 05:38 PM, said:

I read that Duca d'Aosta was paired with french cruisers (Gloire & Suffren) to patrol the Atlantic after Italy re-entered the war with the allies. Anyone heard of this?

 

As far as I know, from the start the Allies requested Italian cruisers for patrols in the Atlantic against blockade runners and U-Boote supply ships, at first four, and then two, the Aosta and the Duca degli Abruzzi. They were stationed at Freetown from 13 November 1943 to 18 March 1944. The Giuseppe Garibaldi arrived at Freetown on 17 March to relieve the Aosta, but the day before it had been decided to suspend their activity there, after 12 missions and 40'000 nautical miles overall. The three cruisers returned to the Mediterranean the following month.

 

I don't know if they operated with French cruisers, though.


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ilDuca #15 Posted 15 March 2017 - 03:22 PM

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Nice post deamon,thank you for keeping us informed!

I can't wait to put my hands on this ship!



Deamon93 #16 Posted 15 March 2017 - 06:06 PM

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View PostilDuca, on 15 March 2017 - 04:22 PM, said:

Nice post deamon,thank you for keeping us informed!

I can't wait to put my hands on this ship!

 

I can't take credit for something I merely reported, I'll let him know though! Assuming hasn't read yet that is.

 

 


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Amrael87 #17 Posted 15 March 2017 - 06:27 PM

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+1 to OP for bringing us this thread. I'm a bit concerned about the very short range of Duca (second-worst after Leander after checking a bit), plus her guns being peashooters compared to, say, the Aoba or Molotov.

 

The almost-fully submerged citadel is nice though as is the ridiculous shell speed, and while the ship may not be anything special I'm still interested, mostly because I'm Italian as well. :P

What do you guys think, between Duca and Molotov which would be the better premium? Asking because I'd love to buy Duca, but as I said, her short range is caus of concern, especially on such a fragile ship.

 



Darth_Glorious #18 Posted 15 March 2017 - 06:29 PM

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View PostAmrael87, on 15 March 2017 - 06:27 PM, said:

+1 to OP for bringing us this thread. I'm a bit concerned about the very short range of Duca (second-worst after Leander after checking a bit), plus her guns being peashooters compared to, say, the Aoba or Molotov.

 

The almost-fully submerged citadel is nice though as is the ridiculous shell speed, and while the ship may not be anything special I'm still interested, mostly because I'm Italian as well. :P

What do you guys think, between Duca and Molotov which would be the better premium? Asking because I'd love to buy Duca, but as I said, her short range is caus of concern, especially on such a fragile ship.

 

 

Its citadel is not submerged...



Amrael87 #19 Posted 15 March 2017 - 07:09 PM

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Then this pic is misleading.

 

Spoiler

 



Deamon93 #20 Posted 15 March 2017 - 07:44 PM

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View PostDarth_Glorious, on 15 March 2017 - 07:29 PM, said:

 

Its citadel is not submerged...

 

The angle isn't the best to see if the citadel is over or under. From the extremities looks under but it's kind of hard to see for sure

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