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A Detailed look at Project 1047 Battlecruiser (Lert)

BC Design 1047 Dutch Battlecruiser

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Trainspite #1 Posted 01 July 2016 - 10:59 PM

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A Detailed look at Project 1047 

 

Quick foreword V2: 

NA user Lert suggested this design for me to take a look at after I had completed my first review of J3, and so I started to gather material to construct a review. However, real life intervened, and this review took the back seat for a while. Eventually, Lert decided to take a stab at reviewing it himself, and although I had roughly completed my own review, I donated my efforts for him to use in his own review, he being the Dutchman after-all, and so a lot more passionate about the ship in question. However, I am allowed to copy paste the review over here for your interest, so here it be. Personally, I think this ship is a decent bet for tier 6, tier 7 at a push with some buffing, but tier 6 is far more likely. 

 


 

Ok, as a Dutchman I think it's time to come clean and admit it. It's time to admit that it was us, the Dutch, that caused both world wars. It wasn't Serbians assassinating Arch Dukes left right and center that caused World War I, it wasn't Germany invading Poland that started off World War II, it was us. The Dutch.

 

Twice in the 20th century did we attempt to design a proper capital ship to put us on somewhat equal footing with everyone else. The 1913 battleship designs in the early nineteen-tens and Project 1047 in the late thirties. Twice we wanted to play with the big boys, twice we started work on a proper capital ship design and twice that work got canceled on account of a world war happening.

 

Now, I haven't yet figured out the mechanics of how designing a ship can cause a world war to occur, but I for one don't believe in coincidence. Y'all should consider yourself lucky we didn't go for a third.

 

The 1913 battleship program was interesting, but they never really got a proper design pinned down. The most likely design would've been designed and built in collaboration with Germany though and consensus is that it would've been based on and resembled the Kaiser class, though there were British designs as well.

 

Project 1047 on the other hand was a lot further along when finally canceled, and it's 1047 that I want to write about today.

 

Artist's impression of what the last design of 1047 would've looked like were she ever built. Handsome she-devil, isn't she.

 

In the 1930's the Dutch believed that armed conflict in the pacific was very likely. If war was to break out, we believed that the Japanese would have designs on Dutch owned territories in the Pacific theater, specifically Java and assigned properties. This threat called for an inrease of Dutch defense in the area, and the aging Java and De Ruyter class light cruisers were considered outdated and wholly inadequate to the task.

 

Furthermore it was believed that if it did come to war, the Japanese capital ships would be engaging and kept busy by American capital ships, meaning that Java would likely be threatened by Japanese heavy cruisers of the Myoukou and Takao classes. So the design mandate went out for a battlecruiser capable of engaging the Japanese heavy cruisers and defeating them in direct confrontation. We Dutch looked east to Germany and saw that they'd just launched their shiny new Scharnhorst class battleships, but when we asked if we could have the plans to those, the Germans politely told us to bugger off.

 

Various designs were drawn up for 1047, with varying degrees of feasability. Over time the Germans relented a bit in their decision to keepScharnhorst's design plans a secret from us, and it's on rough design schematics of Scharnhorst that the third and final draft of 1047 was based. It's this design that this thread is about.

 

Scharhorst's Dutch cousin from abroad. Can you see the family resemblance?

 

1047 was projected for a 1944 commission date. Unfortunately, as stated before, this nasty little thing called World War II happened and threw a wrench in the works. Three were planned, and at least one of the three would've likely been called De Zeven Provincien. We Dutch had a habit of naming the most powerful and grandest ships in our little fleet that. Other probable names would include TrompKortenaer,EvertsenDe RuyterVan Amstel or Witte de With.

 

Being a battlecruiser, I will treat and tier her as a battleship for the purposes of this review.

 

Without further ado, let's get to the good part!

 

Tonnage:

 

28.000 tons normal, estimated 33.000 tons max load.

 

Using dseehafer and Fr05ty's handy formulas, this would give her 48650 hitpoints which would put her at the low end spectrum of tier 5, slightly under New York and quite a bit under Kongou for health.

 

Armor:

 

225mm main belt, inclined at 72 degrees

100mm main armored deck

200 - 250mm barbettes

150mm conning tower

40mm torpedo bulkhead

 

This is thin armor for a battleship by any definition, though 1047 still has a thicker belt than a Kongou. In fact, in general I would consider her armor to be roughly on par with or slightly better than Kongou's in overall protection.

 

Main armament:

 

3x3 280mm /54.5

 

This is where things become interesting. 1047's main armament would've been based on that of Scharnhorst, though with a few minor differences. For one, the projected ROF would've been lower than Scharnhorst's primary armament, with the Dutch guns reaching 2.5 rpm. It would've fired a 315kg AP projectile at 900 m/s, compared to Scharnhorst's 330kg projectile flying at 890 m/s. Very minor differences, but a difference nonetheless.

 

900 m/s is ridiculously fast for a battleship's main guns, and as such 1047 would've had a very flat trajectory and short time-to-target leading to very comfortable gunnery.

 

Penetration wise, these guns would've boasted a very similar performance to Scharnhorst's guns, for which we have the following values:

 

At point blank 604mm pen

At 7900m 460mm pen

At 10000m 348mm pen

At 15000m 280mm pen

At 20000m 225mm pen

 

These are respectable numbers, though it shows how much the armor penetration falls off at range. You'll have to keep in mind though that for the tier, these guns are halfway and a compromise between a CA's and a BB's. It's likely these guns would perform very well against cruisers at any range but against battleships you'd have to get in close. Fortunately that's not that much of a problem, as we'll discover a bit later.

 

The turrets would've been mounted in a 2-1 configuration, with two turrets superfiring afore, and a single turret aft.

 

ROF wise, though their projected performanc lay at 2.5 rpm per barrel, WG would be free to fudge these numbers to make her competitive at whatever tier they put her in.

 

Secondary armament:

 

12x 120mm, arranged in 3x double turrets per side

 

Nothing special. But there's a trick to these guns:

 

Anti-Aircraft armament:

 

12x 120mm, arranged in 3x double turrets per side

14x 40mm Bofors

8x 20mm Oerlikon

 

1047 would've boasted a pretty decent AA suite, with her 12 dual-purpose 120's, more than a dozen Bofors and a few Oerlikons thrown in for good measure.

 

Speed:

 

Now, there's a bit of contention here. The original design draft called for a 180.000 horsepower plant, but the design engineers weren't entirely sure they could fit that potent a drive package into the space allocated, so a proposal was made for a 160.000 horsepower plant instead. This would've been more easy to fit behind armor without increasing her tonnage. A consensus was never reached, though.

 

However, Wargaming seems to be operating on a 'best scenario' philosophy, which makes it likely that were 1047 ever make it into this game, she would get the more powerful stable with 180.000 horses. This would've driven her along at a projected:

 

*drumroll*

 

34 knots.

 

Wooo! Imagine getting ready to engage the enemy's forward scout-cruisers and destroyers, and an uparmored Kongou with Scharnhorst's firepower comes steaming up behind them at 34 knots! That's bound to turn some heads!

 

This speed comes at a cost, though. 1047 is a very long ship, 236 meters. This is 14 meters longer than Kongou. Though 1047 would've been fitted with a double rudder to help steer the thrust from her four props, this would still probably lead to a ship that's fast in a straight line, but does not like cornering very much and thus have low agility. No torpedobeats for us Dutch.

 

Concealment:

 

1047 is a very low ship, with not that much of a superstructure. This leads me to believe that she'd have a very good for-the-tier concealment rating. As an example, Texas is a taller ship and boasts a 15.5km / 10.7km rating. 1047 is lower and would probably have something like 13.5k / 9.0km base.

 

The drawback of being so low is that her fire director is also not that high above the water, which would adversely affect her firing range. However~

 

Gimmicks:

 

1047 comes with a hanger mounted abaft the forward funnel and a launch catapult, which means she'd get access to at least a scoutplane to enhance her range for short periods of time.

 

Being treated as a battleship she'd also get access to healing potions, ofcourse.

 

Maybe as an additional gimmick, WG could give her a shot of defensive fire, but I doubt that. Still, a man can dream.

 

Artist's interpretation of 1047 at sea. If it ain't Dutch, it ain't much.

 

Conclusion:

 

Where to put 1047? Her hitpoints put her at the low end of tier 5, though her gunnery and speed would make her a strong candidate for tier 6. Personally I'd put her at tier 6 with ~3 PM on her guns, though a good argument could be made for tier 5, with the historically projected 2.5 rpm.

 

Pros:

 

- Fast

- High-velocity, punchy guns

- Good AA suite

- But damn she's a goodlooking boat

 

Cons:

 

- Low-ish gun range

- Soft

- Sluggish to turn

- Was never actually built

 

Final thought:

 

Of all the Dutch ships that've been proposed on this forum, I personally think that this stunner of a never-was would be the most fun to drive, and it is my sincere hope to one day be able to captain one. Probably called 'De Zeven Provincien'. We named all our best floaty boats 'De Zeven Provincien'. Literally. All of them.

 

Shoutout and big thanks to Trainspite who helped me with preliminary writing, research and pictures!



Reaper_JackGBR #2 Posted 02 July 2016 - 02:23 AM

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Tier 6 would be more than perfect for her. *Drools at the thought*. 

I'm pretty sure it's where I put her in my minor nations tree I posted last year too. 

I just want to see more BB variety. Just IJN and USN BB's is boring now. Moar BB's! Especially the lesser known ones. And especially BB's that are actually BC's. 


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VC381 #3 Posted 02 July 2016 - 08:34 AM

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More BCs please, I like! And thanks for the review, great work both of you :)

Trainspite #4 Posted 02 July 2016 - 01:12 PM

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View PostVC381, on 02 July 2016 - 08:34 AM, said:

More BCs please, I like! And thanks for the review, great work both of you :)

 

Thanks! I will tell him that, I have 2 cruisers up after this, but then I will find another BC project to do afterwards as well.

salva_barbus #5 Posted 05 July 2016 - 07:55 AM

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Thanks for your hard work! I would definitely buy this ship (as I will buy the Scharnhorst the moment it comes online). A fast battlecruiser, guns that will melt cruisers and can put a dent to battleships... and those gun ballistics would be unreal. But don't find yourself in a melee if you can avoid it.

 

Also, I think this is one role that World of Warships can and should fill. There have been fantastic and amazing ideas about ships that could never come to life, but in WoWs they can, and I hope that your work in making De Zeven Provincien comes to life as well someday :honoring:


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Trainspite #6 Posted 05 July 2016 - 08:43 AM

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View Postsalva_barbus, on 05 July 2016 - 07:55 AM, said:

Thanks for your hard work! I would definitely buy this ship (as I will buy the Scharnhorst the moment it comes online). A fast battlecruiser, guns that will melt cruisers and can put a dent to battleships... and those gun ballistics would be unreal. But don't find yourself in a melee if you can avoid it.

 

Also, I think this is one role that World of Warships can and should fill. There have been fantastic and amazing ideas about ships that could never come to life, but in WoWs they can, and I hope that your work in making De Zeven Provincien comes to life as well someday :honoring:

 

While I'm not sure if I like the premium tag, though since the Dutch can't get much higher in terms of BBs, I think it will end up as a premium. 

 

Yes, 1047 would effectively be a toned down Scharnhorst at tier 6, very good at making cruisers evaporate, but close range engagements definitely are not her/his thing. 

 

And I will duly pass your compliments to Lert, I'm sure he will be appreciative!



piritskenyer #7 Posted 05 July 2016 - 09:06 AM

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I love the style! Very nice review, I want to see the same for the Dunkerque class :D

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CountOfTuscany #8 Posted 05 July 2016 - 09:38 AM

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Great write up! Tbh I got quite excited when I read through this. Looks really good!

Well I doubt this will ever hit the game (or at least hit the game in the coming 5 years), but maybe WG can Blyskawicize it in into the game. One can only wish.

 

 

Edit:

 

A write up about Dunquerqe would be nice too!


Edited by CountOfTuscany, 05 July 2016 - 09:38 AM.

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Trainspite #9 Posted 05 July 2016 - 10:07 AM

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Someone already reviewed Strasbourg here

However, I will give it a thought, since I disagree with the conclusions and think Strasbourg is 6/7 and not 5/6.



piritskenyer #10 Posted 05 July 2016 - 11:11 AM

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View PostTrainspite, on 05 July 2016 - 10:07 AM, said:

Someone already reviewed Strasbourg here

However, I will give it a thought, since I disagree with the conclusions and think Strasbourg is 6/7 and not 5/6.

 

Oh she's most definitely 7. Waroch and myself have worked up an alternative AA suite to make her fit better at 7, but she'd just be too powerful for T6 and definitely at T5. I mean those guns are beastly, they leave the 28cm's depicted in this very thread in the dust.

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TheCinC #11 Posted 07 September 2016 - 09:32 PM

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Hadn't seen this before, nice review!

Do you have the book on this subject, by professor Teitler?
It is quite interesting, especially the part where the Germans basically stalled them, they went to Italy, got a lot more information, then went back to the Germans, like: what the hell guys?

Maybe we should not have ordered our AA guns in Germany either..

I also recall reading that fire control was pretty advanced for the time.

She is very much a paper design though.

Shipyards were incapable of building anything that big and there were doubts if they would be able to find enough crew for these ships.

In order to have even one available at all times, they would have needed 3-4 ships..

Doubtful we will ever see her in game, but De Ruyter, surely..

There is a great book on that one too..


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Trainspite #12 Posted 07 September 2016 - 10:32 PM

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View PostTheCinC, on 07 September 2016 - 09:32 PM, said:

Hadn't seen this before, nice review!

Do you have the book on this subject, by professor Teitler?
It is quite interesting, especially the part where the Germans basically stalled them, they went to Italy, got a lot more information, then went back to the Germans, like: what the hell guys?

Maybe we should not have ordered our AA guns in Germany either..

I also recall reading that fire control was pretty advanced for the time.

She is very much a paper design though.

Shipyards were incapable of building anything that big and there were doubts if they would be able to find enough crew for these ships.

In order to have even one available at all times, they would have needed 3-4 ships..

Doubtful we will ever see her in game, but De Ruyter, surely..

There is a great book on that one too..

 

Thanks! I haven't read the book, but I shall look into it, see if my finances are such that getting the book is feasible.

Don't worry, I am pretty sure at some point she will appear in-game. The Dutch have a fair few ships to contribute, and this one is fairly well known by quite a lot of those who read the forums/play the game. It just may be some time before WG get around to it.  



Whiteridder038 #13 Posted 09 September 2016 - 09:43 AM

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i already love this ship :-). Would be the first one who take this ship if it comes ingame. :-)

1MajorKoenig #14 Posted 09 September 2016 - 09:45 AM

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Beautiful ship!
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SmartassNoob #15 Posted 10 March 2017 - 08:39 PM

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Bump!

 

Yeah, this would be pretty good. What's taking so long? Just make a bunch of relatively minor changes to the Scharnhorst model (like a hull overhaul upgrade) and release it as premium. From what I've read, the armor would have been inferior to the Sharnhorst, but it would have been better in every other way. Most notably: Dual purpose secondary guns, generally better AA guns, much better torpedo protection.

 

EDIT:

 

:read_fish: Wait a minute! I just realized that this thing would have no torps. :fishpalm: Why would they leave these out? :angry: 

 

That means this ship belongs in tier 5, where it would be the most modern BB in the game that would I guess still be quite powerful due to its presumable ability to reload its guns a lot faster than the WW1 ships. Unless they'd argue that the AA gunfire is too good for that tier?


Edited by SmartassNoob, 10 March 2017 - 09:02 PM.

 

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Trainspite #16 Posted 11 March 2017 - 01:06 AM

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View PostSmartassNoob, on 10 March 2017 - 08:39 PM, said:

Bump!

 

Yeah, this would be pretty good. What's taking so long? Just make a bunch of relatively minor changes to the Scharnhorst model (like a hull overhaul upgrade) and release it as premium. From what I've read, the armor would have been inferior to the Sharnhorst, but it would have been better in every other way. Most notably: Dual purpose secondary guns, generally better AA guns, much better torpedo protection.

 

EDIT:

 

:read_fish: Wait a minute! I just realized that this thing would have no torps. :fishpalm: Why would they leave these out? :angry: 

 

That means this ship belongs in tier 5, where it would be the most modern BB in the game that would I guess still be quite powerful due to its presumable ability to reload its guns a lot faster than the WW1 ships. Unless they'd argue that the AA gunfire is too good for that tier?

 

I would prefer tier 6, Spee has ahistorical buffs on her 11" to 3RPM (20s), so I would think that 1047 could have them too. At tier 5, she would work, but I am wary of power creep, and especially if facing tier 4s, 1047 does seem to be a bit too much to deal with (Fast, Workable armour, punchy guns, AA). A bit too many good attributes to convince me.

CaptainThunderWalker #17 Posted 11 March 2017 - 11:52 AM

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So much depends on the soft stats. I mean, compare her to the Scharnhorst, and she seems a bit inferior or at the very least even (less armor for more speed and better AA). Tier VII?

 

Now, compare her to the Moskva, and she looks to be superior in almost all aspects when looking at the hard stats... well, yeah. Tier X?



mtm78 #18 Posted 11 March 2017 - 12:05 PM

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I'd also put her as a tier X cruiser instead of mid tier BB. 

"First they nerfed the carriers and I didn't speak out because I didn't play carriers.                                    Then they nerfed the torpedoes and I didn't speak out because I didn't play IJN DDs.

Then they nerfed cruiser HE and I didn't speak out because I didn't spam HE.                                             Then they nerved concealment on every class except BB's, and I didn't speak out because I didn't have common sense

Then the BBabies came for me, and there was no one left to speak out for me."        

 


SmartassNoob #19 Posted 11 March 2017 - 03:18 PM

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That's obviously much more of a battleship than a cruiser. This game puts all battlecruisers into battleship lines. I'd just split the battlecruisers and battleships.

 

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Trainspite #20 Posted 11 March 2017 - 06:54 PM

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In the same Alaska is similar to Moskva. However, I don't think ships like Alaska, O Klasse, B-65, Stalingrad, Kronstadt & 1047 should end up as tier 10 cruisers. Mainly because they are cruiser hunters, feeding off smaller cruisers. They all have significantly better armour than other cruisers, with guns well suited to the task of taking down cruisers (3RPM 11-15"). 

 

That is generally the role of a BC, and hence I see these ships as cruisers grown too large (hence the Large Cruiser designation), that are an evolution of the BC role, and for all intensive purposes, are BCs. It would be ideal if there was a separate BC class to definitely put them in, but since that comes under the BB class, I would place the examples as tier 6 to 8 BBs. Usually premiums since they don't fit in the tech tree anywhere. 

 

Another reason why I would not like to see these ships as cruisers comes from them being seen as capital ships. The 1047s would have been the pride of the Dutch fleet had it been completed, and seen as BBs or BCs to every other navy. 

 

The ships may be similar in size to Moskva, but where I draw the line is the armour and guns, the biggest I would like to see on a tier 10 'cruiser' would be the 234mm of the British, or the 240mm of the French. The only exception would be a Panzerschiffe line, which would have 11" or 12" guns on large but poorly armoured hulls. The large cruisers with their 9" belts (or B-65s 7-8") belt fill too many aspects of a BB to really be balanced as a 'cruiser' in game. BC Armour, BB calibre and hitting power guns, and the size and displacement really are not suited to cruisers.






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