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0.5.1.0 AP Damage Model Clarification

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mariouus #41 Posted 10 November 2015 - 05:00 PM

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So Nagato vs Furutaka. I do have replays, but no point to upload.I tryed do take as big sample rate than possible, so they are long and boring.

 

Furutaka. Aiming point - waterline, below smokestacks. No angle

 

@4km - average of 5.salvos to kill. No Citadel Penetrations. Average hit rate 4,5 rounds per salvo

@6,9 km average salvos to kill 5.salvos.No Citadel Penetrations. Average hit rate 4. round per salvo.

@8.5 km average salvos to kill 1,5.salvos. Average of 1,5 citadel penetration per salvo.Average hit rate 4 round per salvo.

 

But to make Cruiser players even more happy. This was not only thing I tested.

 

So. Nagato vs Yamato

Yamato, aiming point - waterline, below superfiring turret.No angle

 

@4.km average salvos to kill 3 salvos.Average of 2.citadel penetration per salvo.Average hit rate 5.rounds per salvo.

@6,2km average salvos to kill 3,5 salvos. Average of 2 citadel penetration per salvo.Average hit rate 4,5 round per salvo.

Posted Image

@9.km. average salvos to kill 4.salvos.Average of 1,8.citadel penetration per salvo.Average hit rate 4,5.round per salvo

 

Observation, while I aimed below the turret, I knocked the engine out several times during testing. Nice dispersion.

 

Nagato vs Montana.

 

Montana.Aiming point - waterline, between smokestacks. No angle.

 

@5 KM - average salvos to kill 3.salvos.Average of 3.citadels per salvo.Average hit rate 5.rounds per salvo.

 

Posted Image

 

@6.km- average salvos to kill 3,5.salvos.Average of 2.citadels per salvo.Average hit rate 5.round per salvo.

@9.km - average salvos to kill 4.salvos.Average of 2.citadels per salvo.Average hit rate 4,8 round per salvo.


Edited by mariouus, 10 November 2015 - 05:00 PM.


PzAbteilung #42 Posted 10 November 2015 - 05:02 PM

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what about crashes on the new patch? im the only one who is having tons of crashes?

Martaloc801124 #43 Posted 10 November 2015 - 05:05 PM

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44smok #39 Posted Today, 04:48 PM

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I think I might found the root cause of the problem. At least one of them.

 

The game currently takes under consideration the last armor contact when defining the damage applied. The situaton described on the pic:

 

shows a shell for which the last contact was a bounce. Therefore zero damage is applied to such hit. It gets counted as a bounce and not as a normal penetration.

 

This would explain situation where you get 6 hits from BB to CA for only 4k damage. So 4 of your hits were standard overpens through unprotected parts of armor and 2 have been counted as bounces (from internal citadel armor).

 

What does this mean in practise when firing BB to CA? Here's a comparison how such an example salvo (6 hits including 4 standard overpens & 2 internal citadel bounces) would be resolved under:

a) 4.1 = 2 citadels + 4 overpens = 2*10+4*1 = 24k damage. That's the kaboom situation we've been quite used to.

b) 5.1 as intended = 2 normal pens + 4 overpens = 2*3+4*1 = 10k damage. Still a bit too small penalty for a reckless cruiser but giving both sides chances. For CA to withdraw, for BB to be able to kill him. Acceptable I'd say.

c) 5.1 as implemented = 2 bounces + 4 overpens = 2*0+4*1 = 4k damage. In your face!

 

This still doesn't explain why CA's are still able to citadelother CA's. Perhaps as in the comment above:

 

View Postmariouus, on 10 November 2015 - 02:05 PM, said:

That is easy, shell trajectory. For 130mm it is allmost half of its firing range, For Omaha it is 1/3 and for Fuso less than 1/5. So shell hit the citadel at different angles. 130mm at good angle, 6.inch at slightly worse angle. And Fuso shells hit the citadel roof at autobounce angle, or very close to it.

 

With 203 mm guns on my Zao i cant citadel any cruiser from normal range around 8-15 km. I played another round with Zao and i hit only 1 ,not 2 or 3 or more only one shity citadel to a Mogami from 5.9 km ,yes top CA Zao  can citadel another cruiser !!!!!! Cruisers AP's working , sure, everithing is fine!!!!!! That was sarcasm.  Not whine your BB'S captains were Ca captains have hard time too.

 



AmazingBeaver #44 Posted 10 November 2015 - 05:11 PM

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Spent few hours in Training Room, at close range Pensacolas citadel area as well as superstructure was practically immune to Iowas main battery, as well as Zao's, Ibuki's and Baltimore's. The only way I got penetration damage was to shoot them at long ranges, head on or when they were heavily angled. I had an expression that the shells didn't have time to arm and detonate when they overpenned the citadel, so they just harmlessly flew trough the boiler rooms and magazines. Meanwhile Yamato took a whopping 84,000 citadel damage from full salvo to citadel area at close range, while Zao took a mere 8000. Kinda sucks the immersion out of this game...

 

Switched to Kongo, Furutaka's and Königsberg's citadel and pretty much the entire ship was immune broadside fire from 8-9 km. Once again, I managed to get the citadel shooting right from behind and from longer ranges.

 

 


 


Admiral_noodle #45 Posted 10 November 2015 - 05:12 PM

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View PostMartaloc801124, on 10 November 2015 - 05:05 PM, said:

44smok #39 Posted Today, 04:48 PM

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I think I might found the root cause of the problem. At least one of them.

 

The game currently takes under consideration the last armor contact when defining the damage applied. The situaton described on the pic:

 

shows a shell for which the last contact was a bounce. Therefore zero damage is applied to such hit. It gets counted as a bounce and not as a normal penetration.

 

This would explain situation where you get 6 hits from BB to CA for only 4k damage. So 4 of your hits were standard overpens through unprotected parts of armor and 2 have been counted as bounces (from internal citadel armor).

 

What does this mean in practise when firing BB to CA? Here's a comparison how such an example salvo (6 hits including 4 standard overpens & 2 internal citadel bounces) would be resolved under:

a) 4.1 = 2 citadels + 4 overpens = 2*10+4*1 = 24k damage. That's the kaboom situation we've been quite used to.

b) 5.1 as intended = 2 normal pens + 4 overpens = 2*3+4*1 = 10k damage. Still a bit too small penalty for a reckless cruiser but giving both sides chances. For CA to withdraw, for BB to be able to kill him. Acceptable I'd say.

c) 5.1 as implemented = 2 bounces + 4 overpens = 2*0+4*1 = 4k damage. In your face!

 

This still doesn't explain why CA's are still able to citadelother CA's. Perhaps as in the comment above:

 

 

With 203 mm guns on my Zao i cant citadel any cruiser from normal range around 8-15 km. I played another round with Zao and i hit only 1 ,not 2 or 3 or more only one shity citadel to a Mogami from 5.9 km ,yes top CA Zao  can citadel another cruiser !!!!!! Cruisers AP's working , sure, everithing is fine!!!!!! That was sarcasm.  Not whine your BB'S captains were Ca captains have hard time too.

 

Well I tested New Orleans in coop. Have a look at my video on myntourube channel (signature). For me it's clearly fine (for New Orleans vs. Mogami anyway. 

- thread is now numbers numbers numbers. I shall wait for an official update :)


Regional differences in missions and rewards are acceptable to drive player behaviour and numbers. 

Selling unique content on one server (EU) which is free to earn elsewhere is not. 

My new YouTube channel where I might put up some replays: https://www.youtube....rLXorHICMtDRCxA


Ebu34 #46 Posted 10 November 2015 - 06:08 PM

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View Postclancy774, on 10 November 2015 - 03:30 PM, said:

Are the massive amounts of overpenetration BBs get against close, broadside cruisers wanted?

I think those were already there before the patch, but the occasional citadel masked the issue. I'm definitely not seeing the detonation in the casemate which is sketched above.

This may be the origin of this whole mess - even without the false-citadel bug the pre 0.5.1 armor model wasn't working correctly (i.e. too many overpens), but the occasional false citadel masked this lack of damage. Maybe this is why the devs thought it would not have a big influence - because they still counted for the pens to happen, only they didn't and maybe never did.

I definitely remember close shots at cruisers pre 0.5.1 with only overpens, but usually the next or the volley after would squeeze a citadel then.

Just a theory, what do you guys think...?

Thats exactly what i felt even before the patch. Complements.


Edited by Ebu34, 10 November 2015 - 06:09 PM.

Spoiler

Martaloc801124 #47 Posted 10 November 2015 - 06:13 PM

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Admiral-Noodle

Well I tested New Orleans in coop. Have a look at my video on myntourube channel (signature). For me it's clearly fine (for New Orleans vs. Mogami anyway. 

- thread is now numbers numbers numbers. I shall wait for an official update :)

 

I see youre youtube video and you not  convienced me, you shooted the Mogami closer as me . Your first salvo hit from 4 km !!!!!!!! from 8 hit only 1 citadel ?! That is not normal.Pre patch i bloved any cruser up from 10+km with 6 or more citadel hit and you shot from 3 salvo only 3 citadel.From 20+ hit from pointblanc range only 3 citadel comon ,this is nothing and [edited]. Ap not working. When you shoot low tier BB and from 8 hit 1 citadel thats ok , but Mogami?From this distancance all 8 hit must be citadel not only 1. This is nothing.


Edited by Martaloc801124, 10 November 2015 - 06:17 PM.


JohnHenry #48 Posted 10 November 2015 - 06:17 PM

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You can add to your list of problems: 16 inch HE should not do 1k damage to a DD.

Woland_ #49 Posted 10 November 2015 - 06:28 PM

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It's ridicoulus how AP shells work now. After 47 hits with AP shells into cruisers and Amagi I get a total dmg done in a Tirpitz at 17k (I used to have better results prepatch even if I got sunk very early after the battle started). My shells were only scratching the paintjob. At the same time two Pensacolas pumped me with constant rain of HE shells causing masive fires along the whole ship. With those changes you made BBs useless to the team and pretty much unplayable. 

 

mingbat #50 Posted 10 November 2015 - 06:41 PM

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View PostEctar, on 10 November 2015 - 03:14 PM, said:

Regarding the HE damage - This is also being investigated.  It's not as widely reported/highlighted by players as the AP shell issue was but rest assured this is also being investigated to see if there is an issue with specific guns.

 

There seems to be something very wrong here too.

 

27 hits with HE from Arkansas Beta all over BBs and cruisers, most bounced.

 

 


Edited by mingbat, 10 November 2015 - 06:52 PM.


JocMeister #51 Posted 10 November 2015 - 07:00 PM

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This is how all higher tier games looks right now. I think it speaks for itself....just admit you messed up and release a hotfix removing your "fix". 

 

And next time please test changes before releasing them. Its not BETA anymore remember?

 

 

 

 

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BaemmBaemm #52 Posted 10 November 2015 - 07:15 PM

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View PostAmazingBeaver, on 10 November 2015 - 05:11 PM, said:

 

Switched to Kongo, Furutaka's and Königsberg's citadel and pretty much the entire ship was immune broadside fire from 8-9 km. Once again, I managed to get the citadel shooting right from behind and from longer ranges.

 

 

 

did similiar tests and had basically identical results

 

probably the main reason for this is this silly and flawed "overpenetration" - mechanism, which assumes the interior of the ship basically consists of empty space  :rolleyes:
 

 

dropping overpenetration altogether might fix this issue

 



ZuupermaN #53 Posted 10 November 2015 - 07:33 PM

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Well, i tried out the iowa and the mogami in a training room versus soom variable ships.

Playing with the Iowa against other cruisers resulted very different. Long range against pensacola gave me immediately 2 citadels. But at close range against cleveland no citadels at all.

With the mogami it was also very different. On longer range it was almost impossible to citadel the cleveland. From close range it is possible to citadel the cleveland, but you have to aim 1mm above the waterline...

 

So basicly most cruisers who didnt had big citadels actually are buffed massively, it is very hard to citadel them.

Cruisers like omaha, pensacola etc. are still easy to citadel thanks to their massive citadel hit box.

I do understand this change, and i think its a good change. But only if the cruisers with small citadel hit boxes receive comparable hit boxes like the omaha and pensacola.

 

It is not funny to play with your battleship against cruisers and your overpenning a cleveland all the time because the hit box is so small and if it lands on top it will bounce off.

In return the cleveland can just spamm HE all the time at you for little penalty.



Wavecave #54 Posted 10 November 2015 - 07:46 PM

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View Postvon_chom, on 10 November 2015 - 12:43 PM, said:

thanks

but thats not the only issue, the list is quite long

 

1) mentioned citadel stuff

2) missing smoke from funnels

3) shell landing bug

4) Dogfighting perk bug

5) garage issues with skills and modules dont showing theirs change to basic ships characteristics

6) some CV have issues with landing

7) gun towers are getting knocked out offen

8) possible increase in dispersion

9) chat server issues

10) low calliber HE doing nothing

 

what you mentioned is just the tip of 0.5.1. iceberg

 

 

+1

 

View Postceleb2k, on 10 November 2015 - 12:59 PM, said:

 
  • and one last Q:  what about the premium time, you've broken the gameplay, now you accepted it,  will be premium time returned (from date of 0.5.1 patch release to time of a new fix - at least 5 days)?

 

+1

 

havent played since the new patch because i heard about the AP fiasco immediately and i bought premium to grind through amagi and izumo to reach yamato and now my premium is running short

 



LMN118 #55 Posted 10 November 2015 - 07:46 PM

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Thanks for explanation, but as mentioned this is one of the bigger issues with the update but I am sure (I hope at least) you are looking into all the issues with the patch and release an update soon. Despite some good games with the Murmansk since patch I am not really feeling the need to play WoWS at the moment, and with the amount of games I have to play at the moment and many news ones coming soon the patch could kill the game for me. 

 

Quick note, I found even point blank hits into battleship level targets i.e NC vs NC, still resulted in over penetration. 


Edited by LMN118, 10 November 2015 - 07:51 PM.


OVanBruce #56 Posted 10 November 2015 - 08:01 PM

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Any ideas on the fix already on the table that you may be able to share. We'd like this AP issues to be fixed and also that something is done to the complete prevalence of BBs at higher tiers

How I feel when playing cruiser. Add denpa music for maximum effect


woppy101 #57 Posted 10 November 2015 - 08:29 PM

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I'm happy for a citadel to be hard to penetrate on all ships and it should only be penetrated at very close range or very lucky shots, but to compensate the base damage of AP shells should be raised to around 5-8000 per shell 



t0ffik1 #58 Posted 10 November 2015 - 08:31 PM

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To the post on top, BB's should be able to citadel most things on med range if hit properly, while cruisers shouldnt be able practicly to citadel a BB even at close range (what they can do currently)

 

And now to my post well since everyone adds some coop training room or coops screens with problems id like to try to explain WG this to me.

 

Posted Image

 

1 citadel on aoba, 1 citadel on carrier - pracitly only could do dmg to carrier who i sunk solo, and the rest bounce offs (24 from 27 bounce offs from fuso on 8k range while shooting enemy fuso at 50-70% angle for fun = thats over 50% of bounce off rate).

 

Would also like to know why my mutsukis HE (on hull C) half of the time do 0dmg !!


Edited by t0ffik1, 10 November 2015 - 08:44 PM.

Why is RNG in bounce off mechanics - its ILLOGICAL as penetration is math based in real life (and in other games). Shell will always pen (or not pen) a plate on X angle, while having Y speed and Z weight while the plate remains the same, as long as all the values remain constant!!.

DELETE THE RNG from bounce mechanics and remake fire mechanics to be more realistic - then this game could go Esport and would stop bleeding players WG!!.

 

And from the day of 7.06.2016 NO MONEY FOR WG for treating their communities!.


RichardNixon #59 Posted 11 November 2015 - 02:26 AM

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View Post44smok, on 10 November 2015 - 04:48 PM, said:

This would explain situation where you get 6 hits from BB to CA for only 4k damage. So 4 of your hits were standard overpens through unprotected parts of armor and 2 have been counted as bounces (from internal citadel armor).

 

I don't think this theory is correct. As far as I can tell from testing, shots into the citadel roof (or citadel bulkhead) on cruisers actually do full penetration damage (33%) plus overpenetration damage (10%). The only way to get a zero-damage hit is to shoot into the water such that the shell slows enough to bounce off the citadel armour.

 

This also explains the >1k per shot damage in some of these videos. Shots that hit the citadel roof are actually doing 1020 + 3366 each. For example, the first volley (7 hits, 12852 damage) is 1 bounce through the water, 4 plain overpens, and 2 bounces off the citadel roof.



makhot #60 Posted 11 November 2015 - 06:42 AM

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View Postceleb2k, on 10 November 2015 - 12:59 PM, said:

questions to WG:

  • and one last Q:  what about the premium time, you've broken the gameplay, now you accepted it,  will be premium time returned (from date of 0.5.1 patch release to time of a new fix - at least 5 days)?

+1, last night the game balance was totally broken already as the knowledge of the AP bug spreads. Typical match now: Tens of DDs trying to dance in front of tens of CCs trying to hit each other on the max range.


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