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Vaderan #1 Posted 29 October 2015 - 11:15 AM

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Hello fellow community!

 

First, a word of introduction:

 

A few days ago, i opened a topic concerning the work of our WG EU community staff, the developement and design of the special events we receive, and the WG policy of advertising and introducing new products for the premium shops (als known as bundles).

 

Although the thrad grew rather popular in a short period of time, it was (for whatever reason?) relocated from "general discussion" (which it basically was) to the "off topic" section. Tonight, it was closed and moved to the scrapyard, due to the fact that there has been a comment from a WG-critical forum user which was considered by BigBadVuk as more or less "crossing the line" between complain and insult.

 

The closed original thread can be found here:

 

http://forum.worldofwarships.eu/index.php?/topic/35013-wg-please-stop-treating-us-like-brainless-cashcows/

 

I recommend to have a look at this thread before posting, just to get an impression what has been said already!

 

While i can fully understand, that the Moderation team can and will not accept any insults against Wargaming, the topic itself is still very relevant and worthy of further discussion.

 

However, the last time we wanted to discuss this matter, the discussian probably went a little bit too far "off topic", so this time i want to ask two things of you:

 

1.: try to stay as constructive and close to the topic as possible!

2.: as set up as you might be about WG or their products, remember point 1 and avoid insults or insulting comparisons at any cost!

 

I want to keep the discussion and attention up, elaborate suggestions and solutions which inspire or help WG to improve the situation and avoid further, repeated censorship by the moderators.

 

Maybe, if we keep this professional enough, they will finally accept us a group of enthusiast who try to improve the situation and the game, instead of some revolting opportunists!

 

For all those who haven´t participated in the original discussion, i want to quote my opening-post, so you get an impression of what it was all about!

However, remember, although the original post smells like some kind of "vent off", the goal of this discussion should be a serious exchange with WG and  providing assistance and solutions for an improved situation! If you agree but don´t know what to add for the moment, it might just help the cause to keep this topic recognized and popular, so someone else might find it and add something!

 

I want to keep this topic alive, until we can achieve something positive for the community and the game aswell, not just another excursion to the "off-topic" section or the scrapyard! 

 

Thank you for your attention!

 

Now, here is the quote of the original posting:

 

 

 

 

Hello Wargaming,

 

as a loyal customer, spending money for your products since the first release of the World of Tanks Preorder packs, i sincerly ask from you to stop treating us like brainless cashcows.

I am not asking for this out of rage or disappointment, although the recent premium shop developement, aswell as the EU community service, would allow for a lot of both, but from the point of a customer who just feels ignored and reduced to a money spending idiot.

 

Your community, including me, has a huge understanding for the simple fact, that you, WG, as acompany, need to earn money to keep the servers running, to develope your products and pay your employees. We also understand that, since you are serving for four different server clusters, need to split your attention and try to serve each cluster seperatly and to it´s specific demands.

 

So yes, we know you need the money, and we are willing to hand it over to you, for a good product and great service and support!

 

But here is where it starts to fall of from balance!

1.: the product:

- where World of Tanks meanwhile has worked out to a full scale online PvP game, World of Warships is still nothing else but an improved beta version with release status, at best!. The content is growing but still very "compact", the gamemodes and the diversity in game experience are rather similar and keep repeating. Besides that, there are still balancing and mechanic issues everywhere around, discussed in countless topics all across this forum.

We understand that changes take time, and developement is a matter of months and years, not a few hours or days. However, despite all these limits, the interested customer is treated in any aspect as if this game was already a full price product with incredible ammounts of content, choices, gamemodes and stuff. Why do we have a product which is basically worthy of a "beta badge", but pricetags on every little special thingy which claim: this is a first class premium product?

 

2.: the customer/community service:

- this is where it starts to get really imbalanced. As has been matter of complains for weeks or even months now, it seems you, WG, struggle to support each community in the same way. Events are meagre, and with a look on what we have and had this month, it looks like an ever repeating method. 2x XP for a few days, and everything else for the special is related more or less to the premium shop. Nothing new, nothing creative, nothing special! Yes, you are working on it, and you try your best, but again: work in progress but premium price-tag.

 

3.: the specials:

- here it breaks! As already said, the specials feel like a poor, ever repeating weekend special. Yes, it is nice to have a small, free bonus, but where is the special, if it is always small and always repeating? Oh yes, the premium shop!

In one of the latest announcments, i think it was for patch 0.5.1, i read something like "we have listened!". Yay! -Not! Since i can remember, we, the community of World of Warships Europe, suffer from ridiculous overpriced premium shop specials and bundles.

This is, where the cashcow things really skyrockets!

At first, we had the preorder packs. Ships which will be exclusive for at least 12 months, some premium time, some dubloons. The collectors said "Okay, i am goind to require some dublons anyway, and premiumtime right at the start is a cool thing!"

We accepted and spend our money.

But when and since the game was released, we just have to find out that there isn´t too much worth spending dublons on. A couple of premium ships, premium, port slots and tons of one-way consumables. Not much to invest your money in, but a lot to waste it for.

Then came the first premium ships. Warspite, Tirpitz, now the Fujin. All of them came with bundles. So, whoever wanted to have one of those, was automatically forced to buy stuff he doesn´t want or need. It was and is "take it or leave it!" choice. Of course, all new premium ships are premium shop (and bundle!) exclusive, nothing to spend you dubloons for in the ingame store!

Either spend more money than you want, or spend none at all. One time i went for the "i take it", the rest i went with "leave it".

I am basically a collector. I want them all. But not at the price you demand. Not with all the "goodies" and stuff. If i want to buy a car, i want the car, not the tools, not a holiday in the deveopers county, not a 2 years TV-magazine contract!

I would take it for free, but not if i have to pay it aswell!

Are you, dear Wargaming, aware, that almost any new ship you introduce and bring as a "special" offer, is at least half the price of a full PC game?

The Tirpitz i bought with it´s bundle was more expensive than any brandnew blockbuster game release for a full game! There is no relation between pricetag and product anymore! Even 40 EUR for a premium ship/tank are equal to a full scale PC game, and you don´t just dare to charge it for a single vessel, you even bolster up those "specials" with these "goodies".

If no specials are available, you come up with other special offers, like the actuall "7% dsicount on Atago bundle".

I want to know:

 

ARE YOU SERIOUS?

 

I mean, who developes these strategies, this marketing? If i want an Atago, i buy it seperatly, but not with some random stuff. A player who always wanted to have that ship but didn´t buy it yet, probably didn´t buy it because he didn´t like the price tag so far. Do you beleave that a more expensive bundle with an Atago and some additional stuff will change his mind?

If you want to make real offers, real specials, real deals, then make it right! Atago, naked, 15-30% discount! Thats a deal. Now you got my attention! A 30% discount on exactly the product i want to have! That´s an opportunity, now i am in!

 

The trick whit discounts is simple, and you should know it already: a good discount provides the impression of reward. I reward myself with a 30% discount, because i save 30% of my money! Did i want to buy the Atago? No, not exactly! But i am a collector, and hey, it was on a discount!

It might not change the fact that most "premium shop" products are too expensive for what they deliver, but it would reduce the spann between "expensive" and "overpriced". And it would feel plain, simple and kind of rewarding. Not this bundle crap, which feels like a rip-off each time one shows up.

 

Speaking of a rip off: i was pretty intrigued to read of a 100% XP bonus skin for the halloween event. Logged in, and: 30 dubloons per use?!?!?!

Seriously? Come on! You must be kidding! Now that´s a real rip-off! Premium consumables are at least purchasable for huuuge ammounts of silver, but a 30 dubloons price tag per use? If i got 5 ships i want to get the most out of my double, and take into account that i might require several attempts to get my first victory, i easily have to spent more dubloons on those 5 victories compared to a complete day of premium.

If it were a permanet skin for the time of the event, it would have been worth a thought, but this...no...just no! This is no customer treatment, this is pure, greed inspired, rip-off. Seduce the players to spend as much money as possible in the shortest period of time.

 

Speaking about customer treatment: where is your loyal customer apreciation? How about some loyality rewards for those who spend real money over and over again? I am not talking about the tier 2 tanks/ships for christmas. I am talking about unique, exclusive rewards for those who spend money again and again!

Piranha games with "Mechwarrior online" is a great exaple. I spent several hundred euros for huge packages, and Piranha games remembers that, handing me over free, exclusive premium vehicles some time later. As a surprise. That´s customer appreciation and loyalty reward!

 

You might not have to go that far, but at least, you could do something that changes the customers impression. Right now it is like "give us your money, spent it, and return!"

 

Yes, i kbnow, i am just one of a million. And i am sure, there are enough out there who just throw their money at you. But those, who don´t throw their money at you, they feel ripped off! They feel like cashcows. And i bet, the number of "i feel like a cashcow" customers is bigger that the number of those who say "Hey, yay, look, it´s another bundle with a ship, flaggs, premium time and dubloons!"

I would just recommend to reflect over the question: "What could we achieve, sell and effect on our customers, if we make our pricing policiy more attractive?"

 

Cheers, Vader

 

 



MauserPhoque #2 Posted 29 October 2015 - 11:35 AM

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WG guys are used to censorship and are feeling rather uncomfortably around "unmoderated discussion". They were raised to think free speech or pluralism is chaos. Like dragons or so ;).

Edited by wsciekly_pelikan, 29 October 2015 - 11:37 AM.

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JohnDX #3 Posted 29 October 2015 - 11:59 AM

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+1, keep up the good work. :izmena:

Admiral_noodle #4 Posted 29 October 2015 - 12:19 PM

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View Postwsciekly_pelikan, on 29 October 2015 - 11:35 AM, said:

WG guys are used to censorship and are feeling rather uncomfortably around "unmoderated discussion". They were raised to think free speech or pluralism is chaos. Like dragons or so ;).

 

This is a WG forum hosted by WG. Why would they tolerate insults? Why would anyone? 

 

OP - much better to have positive critique of the game. However Your open letter is still ranty and full of exclamations. 

 

You would do better to objectively state facts, observations, feelings and suggestions like:

 

 - I believe WG is missing out on valuable player contributions by only offering bundle packages and having no new content to buy in game. 

 - I find it disappointing that there have been no new ships released in game as I and many others have doubloons we would be quite happy to spend on moderately priced ships 

 - we would also like to be assured that there will be new "in game" purchases in future as this was the understanding at the time I purchased my doubloons... 

Etc...


Regional differences in missions and rewards are acceptable to drive player behaviour and numbers. 

Selling unique content on one server (EU) which is free to earn elsewhere is not. 

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Eternus_Damnatio #5 Posted 29 October 2015 - 12:19 PM

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WG are getting too greedy it's as simple as that.

 

1.Overpriced bundles with no option to buy the ship separately a complete joke in all honesty.

2.Bundles where each item could be bought for less when paid for individually.

3.Captains having to re train for ships they have already mastered.

4.Having to pay to remove equipment all the time because the engineer loses his spanner.

5.Not enough benefits to having premium

6.Premium ships are overpriced can buy AAA titles for the same money

7.Being treated differently to other servers different offers etc.

Could think of more but doubt they will listen anyway we are nothing but a cash cow for them.


 

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Vaderan #6 Posted 29 October 2015 - 12:27 PM

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View PostAdmiral_noodle, on 29 October 2015 - 01:19 PM, said:

 

This is a WG forum hosted by WG. Why would they tolerate insults? Why would anyone? 

 

OP - much better to have positive critique of the game. However Your open letter is still ranty and full of exclamations. 

 

You would do better to objectively state facts, observations, feelings and suggestions like:

 

 - I believe WG is missing out on valuable player contributions by only offering bundle packages and having no new content to buy in game. 

 - I find it disappointing that there have been no new ships released in game as I and many others have doubloons we would be quite happy to spend on moderately priced ships 

 - we would also like to be assured that there will be new "in game" purchases in future as this was the understanding at the time I purchased my doubloons... 

Etc...

 

+1

 

I agree with you! That´s why i opened this thread with a by far more polite and neutral voice. I just refer to my former thread, quoting myself to point out the emotional backround. For this thread, i wish a constructive discussion, and i appreciate comments like yours, which take on my more or less emotional original post and put it into a more reasonable form. This way, the community can show it is able to work constructive on this topic, not just ranting and complaining!

The original post always has to be a little bit controversal, so it can achieve a solid discussion about it.

I am thankfull for any piece of support, and each +1 this thread gains will bring it a little bit closer to the "popular" and "hot" batch, which draws even more attention.

 

I just hope we can keep this professional and it doesn´t end up in the mess or the scrapyard again.

 

Cheers, Vader

 



Eternus_Damnatio #7 Posted 29 October 2015 - 12:29 PM

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View PostVaderan, on 29 October 2015 - 12:27 PM, said:

 

+1

 

I agree with you! That´s why i opened this thread with a by far more polite and neutral voice. I just refer to my former thread, quoting myself to point out the emotional backround. For this thread, i wish a constructive discussion, and i appreciate comments like yours, which take on my more or less emotional original post and put it into a more reasonable form. This way, the community can show it is able to work constructive on this topic, not just ranting and complaining!

The original post always has to be a little bit controversal, so it can achieve a solid discussion about it.

I am thankfull for any piece of support, and each +1 this thread gains will bring it a little bit closer to the "popular" and "hot" batch, which draws even more attention.

 

I just hope we can keep this professional and it doesn´t end up in the mess or the scrapyard again.

 

Cheers, Vader

 

 

Well to be honest they should not move it to the scrapyard they should remove the offensive posts which is well within their power to do so.

However removing the thread is in their interest.


 

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scousersuk #8 Posted 29 October 2015 - 12:33 PM

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All I can say is use your wallets not just words stop buying premium and stop giving them money then maybe they will stop treating us like a cow being milked dry

Eternus_Damnatio #9 Posted 29 October 2015 - 12:35 PM

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View Postscousersuk, on 29 October 2015 - 12:33 PM, said:

All I can say is use your wallets not just words stop buying premium and stop giving them money then maybe they will stop treating us like a cow being milked dry

 

Exactly what I will be doing from now on.

 

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bloomoon11 #10 Posted 29 October 2015 - 12:35 PM

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As I said in the other thread, WG know their punters, if the bundles weren't working as a strategy then they would change.  WG are a hard nosed business, if they persist with a particular sales strategy you can take that to mean it works well.

 

Only way they'll change is if enough people vote with their wallets.



JG4_sKylon #11 Posted 29 October 2015 - 12:37 PM

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+1 to Vaderan, good post in my opinion.

 

My thoughts on this topic:

 

WoWs is the first WG title i am playing, so i don´t know how the things have been / are in WoT.

In general, i am not someone who wants to have everything right now for free. If i like something, i pay even if not forced to do so.

 

That´s why i bought the 5500 doubloons package for around 20€ for a start. I was in need for ports to put my favorite ships in and wanted to give something back for the fun i have playing, so 20€ seemed okay for me.

 

Then the Tirpitz was released and i really wanted this ship.... but 60€ for a single ship combined with stuff i did not want? No thank you WG.

If it was offered for 40€ without additional stuff...maybe.

 

Last weekend, after release of german CA, i planned to grind my way thru the line and bought 3 day premium. Very smart.... usually weekends include only 2 free days, but you force me to buy 1 day or 3 days premium.


My point is: i am willing to spend money for things, i am not the one going for the cheapest or for free. But there is currently no offer which does not make me feel like a complete idiot when spending my money on it.


Sub_Octavian in September ´16: BB population increase is the real problem now. They are balancing on the edge of allowed combat effeciency and their numbers are growing. And they live too long. So we need to find the way to tweak them.

Patch 0.6.0: giant Buff for BBs

Your vote is needed: http://forum.worldofwarships.eu/index.php?/topic/70253-new-commander-skills/

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beercrazy #12 Posted 29 October 2015 - 12:51 PM

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View Postscousersuk, on 29 October 2015 - 12:33 PM, said:

All I can say is use your wallets not just words stop buying premium and stop giving them money then maybe they will stop treating us like a cow being milked dry

 

 

I kind of agree with you that we should stop spending our money till we get what we want but we are stuck with no other option if we want that ship that's new to the premium shop

I would prefer it if the package offered ships was made available in the next update like what wg do with wot

I do enjoy buying the ships I find fun ie Tirpitz, warspite, and many others but I have no choice if I want the product it has to be wg or nothing and when wg only let us have overpriced packages its kind of shoving us into 2 groups of people who have lots of money and them that don't :(


 


 

 

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JG4_sKylon #13 Posted 29 October 2015 - 01:00 PM

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View Postbeercrazy, on 29 October 2015 - 12:51 PM, said:

but we are stuck with no other option if we want that ship that's new to the premium shop

 

You always have the option to not buy it, it just depends on your priorities.

I have the money to buy the premium ships etc. in the shop but i decided not to spend it for the already mentioned reasons.

 

Don´t get me wrong... i am not judging anyone or want to tell them what to do. But i don´t fully understand people who a) complain about the prices and policy of WG and b) still buy anything anyway.


Sub_Octavian in September ´16: BB population increase is the real problem now. They are balancing on the edge of allowed combat effeciency and their numbers are growing. And they live too long. So we need to find the way to tweak them.

Patch 0.6.0: giant Buff for BBs

Your vote is needed: http://forum.worldofwarships.eu/index.php?/topic/70253-new-commander-skills/

NO TO RADIO POSITION FINDING!!


beercrazy #14 Posted 29 October 2015 - 01:09 PM

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View PostJG4_sKylon, on 29 October 2015 - 01:00 PM, said:

 

You always have the option to not buy it, it just depends on your priorities.

I have the money to buy the premium ships etc. in the shop but i decided not to spend it for the already mentioned reasons.

 

Don´t get me wrong... i am not judging anyone or want to tell them what to do. But i don´t fully understand people who a) complain about the prices and policy of WG and b) still buy anything anyway.

 

I complain about the cost of fuel but I still buy that

I agree I can walk away without spending but I personally like to use these ships but I have no choice but to buy them in packages when I would like just the ship even if I have to wait a month or so till I can buy it with the dabloons(gold ffs its gold wg)  I have stashed in my account but all we get told is it wont be available for a long time after this "package offer"

I know if everyone stopped buying stuff wg would have to say hang on we have done something wrong and will change their marketing style but until you get everyone who plays the game and pays it wont happen


 

 

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WWladCZ #15 Posted 29 October 2015 - 01:11 PM

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+1 Time and time again! Good constructive posts hope WG EU will finally start working with community and improve specials.

Demanding better EU services, pricing and specials!


Troublemaker_CRO #16 Posted 29 October 2015 - 01:36 PM

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I don't think anything will happen. For a long time in WoT we've had HUGE 2-5% discounts (on bundles mostly), only at Christmas (and Easter if I recall correctly) you will see those big discounts, and I highly doubt they will ever change it! Why? Because people still keep spending.

The price of the Tirpitz bundle was almost equal to 1/10 of average (or lowest, not sure about the info, and in the other countries around it, the situation is even worse) paycheck in my country and I highly doubt someone is willing to spend so much money, on a game addon, when he needs it for much more important stuff. Their goal with bundles is to aim at customers with deep pockets (Northern and Western Europe), and sadly they are succeeding in it, as they keep giving us new bundles, meaning the old ones were being sold.

As for Atago, since I consider Cruisers to be the equivalent of Medium tanks in WoT, Atago is like 30-40% more expensive than medium tanks in WoT (and that is the only reason I decided not to buy it) and it's sale probably wasn't going too well, so WG thought, lets sell it in a bundle! Because people somehow see those bundles as something that is sold for a limited time, and suddenly they want to have it!

Those bundles are useful only for people that play regularly (like me) but my problem is that I just cannot afford to pay so much money because I just want the ship (best example is the Tirpitz)

I played a few low tier games yesterday and I saw A LOT of those halloween skins. Unfortunately newbies were buying them as 100% more xp seems amazing, even though you can be done with a low tier in 10-20 battles, and is just not worth it, but I guess it seemed like "a must have" for them and so we had newbies buying and spending a lot of gold for those skins (again a success for WG) as WG probably aimed for new players to spend their gold on those skins.

 

As for those preorder ships, exclusive means (afaik) something that is available ONE TIME only,  and it DID SAY THAT when we were buying the bundles, but I guess they were being sold quite well, so WG suddenly changed their mind (lied and tricked us who bought the bundle) and they will be on sale again, because what it seems, they are just too greedy!

 

Anyway, it seems to me that WG is trying to get rid of us, customers that cannot give them a lot of money...


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Aldramelech #17 Posted 29 October 2015 - 01:49 PM

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another well deserved +1

Greyshark #18 Posted 29 October 2015 - 02:47 PM

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View Postbeercrazy, on 29 October 2015 - 02:09 PM, said:

 

I complain about the cost of fuel but I still buy that

 

You need the fuel for normal life and work, as well as food. You don't need premium ships in video game. See the difference? If you buy them, it's only your choice. Do you send rant emails to petrol companies?

 

To OP:

 

I'm having hard time to understand the point of such discussions. Everything is very simple, basic economy law - offer and demand. As long as there is enough demand for bundles, WG will be selling them. Why to earn less money if you can earn more? Sometimes I have impression only kids are on this forum, who have never bought anything in real life. OMG I want virtual ship but its too expensive, I can't afford it!! Well, welcome to the real life, it's not the first nor last time when you can't afford some thing, get used to it. Do you also rant on Ferrari forums you can't buy their cars because they are too expensive? You can always buy cheaper car, as well as you can always limit your stock to free to play ships only, nobody force you to buy anything after all.

 

Once again, very simple: as long as people buy enough bundles to make WG accountants happy, WG will be offering them, period. 20-30 ranting people at forum won't change anything. I'm really surprised it's so hard to understand for some people.


 

 

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beercrazy #19 Posted 29 October 2015 - 03:01 PM

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let me just say before people think I am ranting about having to buy a premium ship I am not

I am saying I wish I could buy the ship in game for doubloons even if I had to wait a few weeks or a month or so

I am not happy about buying the "packages" but that's my choice and I am happy with 2 of the packages I bought but not a third as the ship was awful


 

what I do not like is how setting these packages at high price is making the player base community into a "your a idiot for funding wg ect ect because you bought a package and its people like you who keep it like it is"

we are all here to play a game we enjoy and all that seems to be happening is the people who cannot afford to buy "packages" or the high tier premium ships are getting forgotten by wg as a customer

this makes a lot of these players fed up seeing wg release another high price package and people still willing to buy them


 

I have not bought the latest package as I feel it is worse than ever of a rip off


 


 

 

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Anulmentor #20 Posted 29 October 2015 - 03:05 PM

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Here have my +1.

 

Regarding the issues you mentioned, there are only three ways about it.

1. Stop spending money.

-This will probably do nothing because for everyone not spending money there will be someone who will do it, so the impact will be minimal.

2. Stop playing the game.

-More or less the same as above, because WG is already counting on many people spending money and leaving the game soon after.

3.Involve the media.

-Negative and positive media exposure in any form will probably produce more results than anything we can do on this forum.

 

 


Edited by Anulmentor, 29 October 2015 - 03:09 PM.





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